The death of science by 3rd level education

[diddleydoo]

My observation is the the Uni course is not dumbed down and what then happens is you get higher failure rates in first year, which then assists the cycle that Science is "hard" so negatively markets it.

In terms of the other point about doing Med or Vet or other courses, 1st year Chemistry and Biology is the same for pretty much all Physical or Life Science based degrees, meaning that Science, Pre-meds and others are all "lumped" into the same chemistry and bio courses for first year so I don't see how, if they made a choice to change to another med course or life science course, they can get out of being seen in lectures with first year science. I do agree that the CAO points system has bred an element of elitism into the system - the big challenge is to get science so recognised that you get 600 pointers doing it, now that would be sweet and healthy for the country.

I agree that the misconception that the CAO points system is some kind of quality rating is very damaging.

I don't know how it is now, but back when I did my leaving cert, I HAD to choose the highest entry on my application form I was qualified for. Is this still so?

Any ideas how to introduce a better system?

Shane.

[Oppenheimer]

My observation is the the Uni course is not dumbed down and what then happens is you get higher failure rates in first year, which then assists the cycle that Science is "hard" so negatively markets it.

In terms of the other point about doing Med or Vet or other courses, 1st year Chemistry and Biology is the same for pretty much all Physical or Life Science based degrees, meaning that Science, Pre-meds and others are all "lumped" into the same chemistry and bio courses for first year so I don't see how, if they made a choice to change to another med course or life science course, they can get out of being seen in lectures with first year science. I do agree that the CAO points system has bred an element of elitism into the system - the big challenge is to get science so recognised that you get 600 pointers doing it, now that would be sweet and healthy for the country.

I agree that the misconception that the CAO points system is some kind of quality rating is very damaging.

I don't know how it is now, but back when I did my leaving cert, I HAD to choose the highest entry on my application form I was qualified for. Is this still so?

Any ideas how to introduce a better system?

Shane.

I'm not so sure about changing the CAO system - we need something that is competitive IMO but I think we need to take a look at the reasons the system was designed the way it is and are those reasons still valid. Putting aside quality of a particular institute or course for the moment - one of the reasons the CAO system exists in its present form (and previous versions) was due to the overwhelming shortage of 3rd level places so the competition for places was measured by the points system at a national level, i.e., replaced the old matriculation systems of the universities. These days there is less of a shortage of 3rd level courses and people pretty much have a choice to do whatever they want, i.e., even if I don't get enough points for Med now I can go do a repeat course or another course that will give me credit.

What could be changed is the timing at which people make career choices, i.e., a 17/18 year old making a choice to be a Vet or a Doctor is early by international standards. US students do a college "degree" (probably equivalent to our diploma in the IT system) and are 21 before making the choice to specialise. If courses leading from the Leaving cert were set at a more generic basis to "prime the pump" and give students time to decide rather than force the decision early, I believe you will get more of a healthy mix of people who "really" want to be doctors etc. doing that so there won't be such a mad rush.

Obvious factors that impact this are downstream factors - Doctors, in the main have steady jobs and opportunities to rip ths country off as consultants (tongue in cheek but you know what I mean) so there is VERY clear incentive for people to want to do that. Other "stable" choices are Vetrinary. Pharmacy, some Engineering disciplines, Architecture etc. For a more holistic approach the country needs to look at these professions and do some "what if scenario" planning for the next 25 years and ask the question "Why are these professions more important than Scienctific/business ones?" If the answer is that they are not then any changes in the education system have to be coupled with a skew towards getting Science/business educational qualifications into line with these others (or row back state sponsored securitisation of these other professions - that will take courage though!).

[moghroth]

This is a joke, right?
'Gaelic' science? 'Vedic' science?
Please tell me you're making that up.

Nope. First enrolement started today. Ealadha Dúthchais

stringjack you are thinking about old school stuff.

We will actually take off during our graduation.

[wombat]

Yes actually. I have decided to establish an internet based university on Spike Island. The opening date is before Christmass. We will broadcast all of our knowledge of Gaelic Science, Modern Science and Vedic Science to the world. The long journey taken by many immigrants to many parts of the world will finally be vindicated.

You're a bit behind, Athlone IT are offering an engineering course in Web Development - you should link up with them

[riven]

Some interesting points raised.

The Dons and the Students want the prestige of a University

As does anyone. would you work the same job for a less prestigious company? Because the IT have shied away from Technology courses there is no prestige for such courses.

Costs for engineering
The costs for engineering (and other science courses) are the highest in college generally. Also because of low numbers, the revenue stream is low. However the cost overall is still low. Consider building a new lab for engineering. I weould suggest that materials required is a capital cost of approx 1-2 million. Hardly a huge cost. For operating costs in a properly run lab, the major cost will be personell (technicians). most lab work is small scale so not much material required. So in short i do not think cost is a major issue.

Universities on a world scale
It is true that Irish universities do not register on a world scale much. However the fact that they do at all is not as bad as it seems. Years of cronic underfunding and poor research prospects (large amounts of funding are only recently available coupled with limited infastructure ie research groups and facilities) has lead to this. Research is now only becoming a priority becase we were and still are a munufacturing country. We have the oppertunity to change this but I feel that without a major change in the ways IT work and without a prestigous (warrented/assessed due to output and results) techological/science base, this oppertunity will not happen.blications from irish institutions, they are very low on a world scale. The difference between QUB and UCD is marginal.

This is not something I am against, it is the natural way the country evolved, by taking on MNCs we necessarily took first their function as manufacturers and only in recent years have they started to become more involved in setting up Research and Development here.

My experience with a pharma company (no longer involved) who are on this path in Ireland is similar. the concentration up to now has been on support. Research has started as the company wants to retain its capabilities it has fostered here. To such an extent that is is not moving manufacturing abroad; rather it is saying that the manufacturing needs to be improved. This is very rare though (keeping manufacturing and or research facility setup).
In many ways this industry in Irelabnd is similar to what happened in the US. The manufacturing plants were so ineffective in cost that they lost alot of production. Research was setup etc. Ireland has yet to really begin this process of setup properly in my opinion.

In research over the past ten years since technology foresight, funding has been better and some of the outputs of SFI are starting to bear fruit as we have attracted more international researchers and centres of various competences are being put or have been put in place, CRANN, Tyndall, Conway Institute, NCSR (DCU).

Compare SEI (competence) with ECN netherlands for example and I think you will see our competences are still short. This is due to lack of funding and a focus on soft policy documents are opposed to technical reports. another issue is that SEI gets alot of what I call soft funding (from Ireland) as opposed to the slightly more rigerous european funding (ie direct from Europe for exmaple under FP7).

Mixing engineering degree with business
For a good research community this should be avoided at all costs except at postgrad stage. Courses for science and engineering need the time. I have seen a course from an institution that is starting such a course and I can say that the engineering has been dumbed down. My brother (an accountant) says that the business has been cut as well. What can be done is that the courses become more focused. However even with that most scientests will come from college still learning. This will have a similar effect as IT foxcusing on business. Poor science graduates who expertise does not really excell in any area. 'You cannot be all people to all men'.

[geraghd]

Entry to the Science faculty at most of our universities requires about 300 points. There are 2 problems here. Many 300 pointers will struggle with the course content which may be dumbed down in an attempt to keep them on board. Also,(deep breath) many L/C high achievers would not be seen dead in a lecture hall with 300 pointers so they don't put Science on their CAO forms, even though they may have taken Maths, Physics and Chemistry for L/C simply because they find them easy and less time consuming than some other subjects. I don't have the solution.

Thats interesting actually, as I know of about two human geneticists (requires circa 530 points) who left after first year because they had the same classes as ordinary Science folk (395 that year) and decided to do medicine or somesuch as it apparently was more befitting their calibre. Anyways, this thing I imagine is very very rare, and confined only to certain cohorts of the community.

But seriously, less than 300 points for a Science course (UCD) is a joke to be honest.

My observation is the the Uni course is not dumbed down and what then happens is you get higher failure rates in first year, which then assists the cycle that Science is "hard" so negatively markets it.

In terms of the other point about doing Med or Vet or other courses, 1st year Chemistry and Biology is the same for pretty much all Physical or Life Science based degrees, meaning that Science, Pre-meds and others are all "lumped" into the same chemistry and bio courses for first year so I don't see how, if they made a choice to change to another med course or life science course, they can get out of being seen in lectures with first year science. I do agree that the CAO points system has bred an element of elitism into the system - the big challenge is to get science so recognised that you get 600 pointers doing it, now that would be sweet and healthy for the country.

Yeah that is exactly what happens, failure rates simply shoot up, which wastes so much money on people who aren't capable of doing the course.
And in Trinity (and I presume medical courses in all other unis) no medical students (nursing, medicine, or dentistry) are in with ordinary science students at any point in their course.

[moghroth]

Here we are. Check out Fort Mc Henry, in the USA.

[Oppenheimer]

And in Trinity (and I presume medical courses in all other unis) no medical students (nursing, medicine, or dentistry) are in with ordinary science students at any point in their course.

I wasn't aware of that - this seems to be a waste of resources given that at some point a would-be Vet or GP is going to have to come up to speed on the equivalent of LC Chemistry and Biology at least. This probably goes to my other post on the fact that a "general" diploma or degree be completed before people move on to Med or other courses that will define their profession.