University fees are back on agenda says O'Keeffe: Times

[adamirer]

I don't consider it a total failure tho, it did let working class schlums like me go to university, right alongside the snobs it helped at second level.

Hear, Hear. Just because the culchies got grants to come to Dublin doesn't mean your typical working class or hell, even lower midle class people had the same opportunities. As someone coming from a working class family, the free fees helped both me and my brother go to college at the same, something that wasn't feasible economically for my family had the free fees not come in. Fee's should not come in until such time as the grant situation is made more fair, you should be get it merely because of the distance of your home from the college. A joke.

If, and its a big IF, they are stupid enough to do that again, what will happen is a) a big drop off in graduate numbers from Dublin working class students (who need college to break the cycle) who won't meet whatever means test they put in place (the pre 1995 conditions were ridiculous) b) bring down the numbers of graduates we recruit c) force people into borrowing to be educated.

The college already took the piss with the massive increases in capitation grants they introduced.

[riven]

To avoid repeating myself see my post on this thread
viewtopic.php?f=171&t=38917&start=72

What is important is that introducing fees to the student will do nothing to help the 3rd level situation as these fees are already being paid for by the gov. It is chronic underfunding that is the problem.

[Whatuwant2007]

The number of students entering 3rd Level Institutes has risen considerably since the abolition of fees. I think it's a terrible idea to bring them back! Producing top-quality graduates is essential for the future of the Irish economy..

Having spent the past few years in UCD doing a degree and masters, as well as going to college in the US, and now a PhD, Irish colleges don't produce top quality graduates compared to colleges in the UK, France, US, Japan... the Universities here are nothing more than degree factories, spewing out poorly educated students who have learned everything off by heart, received grinds and cant apply anything they have learnt to the real world

The extent to which grinds are now an everyday thing for students should worry the government, its a sign that students are learning the material sufficiently (and also are willing to hand over money to get the degree).
The only solution is better funding.... (this also applies at second level - which can be sorted once money is freed up)

Ireland will/can produce top quality students but only when fees are re-introduced and students learn that There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Maybe if they were paying fees to attend college they might spend more time studying and less time drinking their heads off and then cramming in the library or at home until all hours before the exam.

/end of rant/


On a separate note... Why should the State pay for the child of doctor parents to study medicine for 5 years, when clearly the state would be better off paying for the child of a road sweeper to study medicine...

**EDIT** Any reintroduction of fees must come as part of a fair system, one in which those with the least in society bear no burden, while those with the most in society bear a share of the burden while the government bears the burden of the low and middle income earners...**EDIT**

[Schuhart]

PS. NDS has a point. The grant system is a joke. Every farmer and self-employed person in the country with a kid in college would be in penury if the statements on their grant forms were to be believed

I was thinking much the same. I've no problem with the idea that fees should be paid, or that grants be available for people who cannot afford them. My problem is that what will actually happen is resources will be handed over to folk well capable of paying, thus denying resources that might actually tackle educational disadvantage.

This will happen because, for whatever reason, preventing undeserving folk from taking State resources intended for the genuinely needy is not a politically priority.

Is it fair to say that a strong motivation for people in opposing the reintroduction of fees is exactly this? People have no confidence in the ability of the system to fairly apply charges where they can be afforded. People don't see why they should pay if their wealthier neighbour gets off. But all they feel the political system will react to is a straight demand for no fees.

[greengoose]

Post of the month!

The number of students entering 3rd Level Institutes has risen considerably since the abolition of fees. I think it's a terrible idea to bring them back! Producing top-quality graduates is essential for the future of the Irish economy..

Having spent the past few years in UCD doing a degree and masters, as well as going to college in the US, and now a PhD, Irish colleges don't produce top quality graduates compared to colleges in the UK, France, US, Japan... the Universities here are nothing more than degree factories, spewing out poorly educated students who have learned everything off by heart, received grinds and cant apply anything they have learnt to the real world

The extent to which grinds are now an everyday thing for students should worry the government, its a sign that students are learning the material sufficiently (and also are willing to hand over money to get the degree).
The only solution is better funding.... (this also applies at second level - which can be sorted once money is freed up)

Ireland will/can produce top quality students but only when fees are re-introduced and students learn that There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Maybe if they were paying fees to attend college they might spend [color=#FF0000]more time studying and less time drinking their heads off and then cramming in the library or at home until all hours before the exam[/color].

/end of rant/


On a separate note... Why should the State pay for the child of doctor parents to study medicine for 5 years, when clearly the state would be better off paying for the child of a road sweeper to study medicine...

Do bakers, butchers candlestick makers and the odd plumber go to university? Someone has to do other stuff than appear intelligent sitting in front of a computer screen...

[Munion]

Rich people should have to pay for third level education.

Poor people should not have to pay for third level education.

Hopefully by the time their children hit college age they would be then classified as rich people and have to pay fees.

[Whatuwant2007]

Post of the month!

The number of students entering 3rd Level Institutes has risen considerably since the abolition of fees. I think it's a terrible idea to bring them back! Producing top-quality graduates is essential for the future of the Irish economy..

Having spent the past few years in UCD doing a degree and masters, as well as going to college in the US, and now a PhD, Irish colleges don't produce top quality graduates compared to colleges in the UK, France, US, Japan... the Universities here are nothing more than degree factories, spewing out poorly educated students who have learned everything off by heart, received grinds and cant apply anything they have learnt to the real world

The extent to which grinds are now an everyday thing for students should worry the government, its a sign that students are learning the material sufficiently (and also are willing to hand over money to get the degree).
The only solution is better funding.... (this also applies at second level - which can be sorted once money is freed up)

Ireland will/can produce top quality students but only when fees are re-introduced and students learn that There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Maybe if they were paying fees to attend college they might spend [color=#FF0000]more time studying and less time drinking their heads off and then cramming in the library or at home until all hours before the exam[/color].

/end of rant/


On a separate note... Why should the State pay for the child of doctor parents to study medicine for 5 years, when clearly the state would be better off paying for the child of a road sweeper to study medicine...

Do bakers, butchers candlestick makers and the odd plumber go to university? Someone has to do other stuff than appear intelligent sitting in front of a computer screen...

Maybe if "we" admitted that not everyone should be going to college, and that not everyone can become a solicitor or accountant we might have an economy that works properly. There are electricians making more money than accountants in this country...


At times like this im inclined to agree with Moore McDowell and his dumb students comments.... maybe the odd girl/boy shouldn't go to college and try to make mammy and daddy proud in other ways

[riker1969]

I was talking recently to Niamh Brreaneach's advisor at the time fees were abolished. She was Minister of Education then. He said a powerful motivation was the fall in participation in the middle income group of 30-60k. The cost of fees was too much for them. They got no grants and could not play around with their accounts like the self employed who could show a loss the year they wanted grants. It has to be asked if the position of middle income families is any better today to afford fees-especially with high mortgage costs and High childcare costs.

[generick]

Indeed, many students could do with working a bit harder, as could many employees. Funny how no one bitches about their drunkenness, incompetence and laziness. Maybe its just more socially acceptable to attack students, they're such an easy target.

On fees, this is probably the worst time to introduce them, and TBH, i feel sorry for Batt O'Keeffe if he does get this, as people in his constiuency will suffer and i could see him losing his seat (i live n hope anyway).

The most important thing to remember is that THERE ARE STILL UNIVERSITY FEES. The Government pay them on behalf of approved students. Therefore, in order to increase funding, or at least maintain it, fees would need to be double what they are now (assuming the DoF cut payments in line with fees). Otherwise it will just be the same old problem all over again. Maybe we should cut salaries of academics? They're way above the european average and a 5% cut in all grades above basic lecturer would raise an awful lot of money.

[dajaffa]

If this actually happens it'll spell disaster for the second level system in some parts of the country. A huge number of those going to private second level schools are sent there with their parents knowing that 3rd level is free. If this changes there'll be a huge increase in demand for public second level schools and I reckon in some parts of the country (the likes of south Dublin which has a lot of private schools) there won't be enough places in the public system to meet demand.

What'll happen is they'll talk about introducing fees, then scale it back to a graduate tax to get less bad press, and then the universities won't get increased funding for a long time as it'll be a while before a lot of graduates are earning enough to pay the graduate tax.