University fees are back on agenda says O'Keeffe: Times

[SineadW]

The number of students entering 3rd Level Institutes has risen considerably since the abolition of fees. I think it's a terrible idea to bring them back! Producing top-quality graduates is essential for the future of the Irish economy..

Yes we should retain our overcrowded degree mill third level system where Irish students cannot compete on a level footing with foreign students because the cash hunger of the university requires them. Then we wonder why we are falling behind in the "knowledge economy". All so the children of the upper middle class can go to a nice private secondry school rather than slumming it with the plebs. Perish the thought.

Free Fees was a badly thought out failure by a minister who was desparate to save her own skin. Thankfully she failed in that too.

I resent that. Going to a private school is nothing to do with avoiding "slumming it with the plebs" for a lot of people, actually you may find that a lot of state schools are better facilitated and funded than "private schools". Sometimes you're only paying fees for smaller class sizes, nothing else. Nice doesn't factor into some "private" schools.
They'd be better off sorting the primary education section first, it's the real mess.

All the more reason to charge fees and invest the money in the education sector that applies to everyone, rather than giving relying on free fees which is just a middle-class give-away.

Yes that would be a lovely idea, except for the fact that the global financial problems are having an effect on "middle class" people. You won't see them sending their children to lovely "posh" secondary schools anymore - can't afford it.

[Universal_001]

The number of students entering 3rd Level Institutes has risen considerably since the abolition of fees. I think it's a terrible idea to bring them back! Producing top-quality graduates is essential for the future of the Irish economy..

Yes we should retain our overcrowded degree mill third level system where Irish students cannot compete on a level footing with foreign students because the cash hunger of the university requires them. Then we wonder why we are falling behind in the "knowledge economy". All so the children of the upper middle class can go to a nice private secondry school rather than slumming it with the plebs. Perish the thought.

Free Fees was a badly thought out failure by a minister who was desparate to save her own skin. Thankfully she failed in that too.

I resent that. Going to a private school is nothing to do with avoiding "slumming it with the plebs" for a lot of people, actually you may find that a lot of state schools are better facilitated and funded than "private schools". Sometimes you're only paying fees for smaller class sizes, nothing else. Nice doesn't factor into some "private" schools.
They'd be better off sorting the primary education section first, it's the real mess.

All the more reason to charge fees and invest the money in the education sector that applies to everyone, rather than giving relying on free fees which is just a middle-class give-away.

But only for the "well off" right and just like medical cards and other means tests what constitutes "well off" will get lower and lower every year :P

[NotDevsSon]

The number of students entering 3rd Level Institutes has risen considerably since the abolition of fees. I think it's a terrible idea to bring them back! Producing top-quality graduates is essential for the future of the Irish economy..

Yes we should retain our overcrowded degree mill third level system where Irish students cannot compete on a level footing with foreign students because the cash hunger of the university requires them. Then we wonder why we are falling behind in the "knowledge economy". All so the children of the upper middle class can go to a nice private secondry school rather than slumming it with the plebs. Perish the thought.

Free Fees was a badly thought out failure by a minister who was desparate to save her own skin. Thankfully she failed in that too.

I resent that. Going to a private school is nothing to do with avoiding "slumming it with the plebs" for a lot of people, actually you may find that a lot of state schools are better facilitated and funded than "private schools". Sometimes you're only paying fees for smaller class sizes, nothing else. Nice doesn't factor into some "private" schools.
They'd be better off sorting the primary education section first, it's the real mess.

All the more reason to charge fees and invest the money in the education sector that applies to everyone, rather than giving relying on free fees which is just a middle-class give-away.

Yes that would be a lovely idea, except for the fact that the global financial problems are having an effect on "middle class" people. You won't see them sending their children to lovely "posh" secondary schools anymore - can't afford it.

*Sob*

A tragedy.

Then go to the LOCAL school then if you are that hard up.

[SineadW]

[quote=NotDevsSon]

The number of students entering 3rd Level Institutes has risen considerably since the abolition of fees. I think it's a terrible idea to bring them back! Producing top-quality graduates is essential for the future of the Irish economy..

Yes we should retain our overcrowded degree mill third level system where Irish students cannot compete on a level footing with foreign students because the cash hunger of the university requires them. Then we wonder why we are falling behind in the "knowledge economy". All so the children of the upper middle class can go to a nice private secondry school rather than slumming it with the plebs. Perish the thought.

Free Fees was a badly thought out failure by a minister who was desparate to save her own skin. Thankfully she failed in that too.

I resent that. Going to a private school is nothing to do with avoiding "slumming it with the plebs" for a lot of people, actually you may find that a lot of state schools are better facilitated and funded than "private schools". Sometimes you're only paying fees for smaller class sizes, nothing else. Nice doesn't factor into some "private" schools.
They'd be better off sorting the primary education section first, it's the real mess.

All the more reason to charge fees and invest the money in the education sector that applies to everyone, rather than giving relying on free fees which is just a middle-class give-away.

Yes that would be a lovely idea, except for the fact that the global financial problems are having an effect on "middle class" people. You won't see them sending their children to lovely "posh" secondary schools anymore - can't afford it.

*Sob*

A tragedy.

Then go to the LOCAL school then if you are that hard up.[/quote:1t0ctg1y]

That is NOT what I meant! What I'm saying is, the point people are making is that "middle class" people send their children to these posh schools because they're saved the money of college fees. If they're no longer able to pay for private schools how in god's name would they be able to pay college fees? It doesn't make sense to bring back the fees when everyone is being hit by the credit crunch because lots of those people who would have been able to pay during the good times but didn't have to won't be able to afford it anymore.

[conorstuff]

Most of the arguments for University Fees here revovle around the fact that it will help the middle class.
Middle class people are the only ones who can afford to pay fees anyway. The fact that it saves them money that could be spent on giving their children private education is irrelevant. Rich people will seek what they believe to be the best education for their children anyway. This is being made into some sort of ideological bias against the middle class when really it is about the exact opposite; the working class. Free fees give talented students a chance to advance their education, no matter what the background. If we take these away then middle class people are the only ones who would be able to avail of university education.

[NotDevsSon]

[quote=SineadW][quote=NotDevsSon]

The number of students entering 3rd Level Institutes has risen considerably since the abolition of fees. I think it's a terrible idea to bring them back! Producing top-quality graduates is essential for the future of the Irish economy..

Yes we should retain our overcrowded degree mill third level system where Irish students cannot compete on a level footing with foreign students because the cash hunger of the university requires them. Then we wonder why we are falling behind in the "knowledge economy". All so the children of the upper middle class can go to a nice private secondry school rather than slumming it with the plebs. Perish the thought.

Free Fees was a badly thought out failure by a minister who was desparate to save her own skin. Thankfully she failed in that too.

I resent that. Going to a private school is nothing to do with avoiding "slumming it with the plebs" for a lot of people, actually you may find that a lot of state schools are better facilitated and funded than "private schools". Sometimes you're only paying fees for smaller class sizes, nothing else. Nice doesn't factor into some "private" schools.
They'd be better off sorting the primary education section first, it's the real mess.

All the more reason to charge fees and invest the money in the education sector that applies to everyone, rather than giving relying on free fees which is just a middle-class give-away.

Yes that would be a lovely idea, except for the fact that the global financial problems are having an effect on "middle class" people. You won't see them sending their children to lovely "posh" secondary schools anymore - can't afford it.

*Sob*

A tragedy.

Then go to the LOCAL school then if you are that hard up.[/quote:1pf1mo4h]

That is NOT what I meant! What I'm saying is, the point people are making is that "middle class" people send their children to these posh schools because they're saved the money of college fees. If they're no longer able to pay for private schools how in god's name would they be able to pay college fees? It doesn't make sense to bring back the fees when everyone is being hit by the credit crunch because lots of those people who would have been able to pay during the good times but didn't have to won't be able to afford it anymore.[/quote:1pf1mo4h]

D'oh. If you cannot pay you get a grant. If you can pay you don't. It really is quite simple and elementary.

You make it sound as though the nasty government is taking a right of education from starving middle class people living in dire poverty.

[SineadW]

[quote=NotDevsSon][quote=SineadW][quote=NotDevsSon]

The number of students entering 3rd Level Institutes has risen considerably since the abolition of fees. I think it's a terrible idea to bring them back! Producing top-quality graduates is essential for the future of the Irish economy..

Yes we should retain our overcrowded degree mill third level system where Irish students cannot compete on a level footing with foreign students because the cash hunger of the university requires them. Then we wonder why we are falling behind in the "knowledge economy". All so the children of the upper middle class can go to a nice private secondry school rather than slumming it with the plebs. Perish the thought.

Free Fees was a badly thought out failure by a minister who was desparate to save her own skin. Thankfully she failed in that too.

I resent that. Going to a private school is nothing to do with avoiding "slumming it with the plebs" for a lot of people, actually you may find that a lot of state schools are better facilitated and funded than "private schools". Sometimes you're only paying fees for smaller class sizes, nothing else. Nice doesn't factor into some "private" schools.
They'd be better off sorting the primary education section first, it's the real mess.

All the more reason to charge fees and invest the money in the education sector that applies to everyone, rather than giving relying on free fees which is just a middle-class give-away.

Yes that would be a lovely idea, except for the fact that the global financial problems are having an effect on "middle class" people. You won't see them sending their children to lovely "posh" secondary schools anymore - can't afford it.

*Sob*

A tragedy.

Then go to the LOCAL school then if you are that hard up.[/quote:3smolusx]

That is NOT what I meant! What I'm saying is, the point people are making is that "middle class" people send their children to these posh schools because they're saved the money of college fees. If they're no longer able to pay for private schools how in god's name would they be able to pay college fees? It doesn't make sense to bring back the fees when everyone is being hit by the credit crunch because lots of those people who would have been able to pay during the good times but didn't have to won't be able to afford it anymore.[/quote:3smolusx]

D'oh. If you cannot pay you get a grant. If you can pay you don't. It really is quite simple and elementary.

You make it sound as though the nasty government is taking a right of education from starving middle class people living in dire poverty.[/quote:3smolusx]

That's not what I mean to sound like, I just think re-introducing University fees is a bad idea. There are other areas the money the government apparently need to save could come from.

[Universal_001]

[quote=NotDevsSon][quote=SineadW][quote=NotDevsSon]

The number of students entering 3rd Level Institutes has risen considerably since the abolition of fees. I think it's a terrible idea to bring them back! Producing top-quality graduates is essential for the future of the Irish economy..

Yes we should retain our overcrowded degree mill third level system where Irish students cannot compete on a level footing with foreign students because the cash hunger of the university requires them. Then we wonder why we are falling behind in the "knowledge economy". All so the children of the upper middle class can go to a nice private secondry school rather than slumming it with the plebs. Perish the thought.

Free Fees was a badly thought out failure by a minister who was desparate to save her own skin. Thankfully she failed in that too.

I resent that. Going to a private school is nothing to do with avoiding "slumming it with the plebs" for a lot of people, actually you may find that a lot of state schools are better facilitated and funded than "private schools". Sometimes you're only paying fees for smaller class sizes, nothing else. Nice doesn't factor into some "private" schools.
They'd be better off sorting the primary education section first, it's the real mess.

All the more reason to charge fees and invest the money in the education sector that applies to everyone, rather than giving relying on free fees which is just a middle-class give-away.

Yes that would be a lovely idea, except for the fact that the global financial problems are having an effect on "middle class" people. You won't see them sending their children to lovely "posh" secondary schools anymore - can't afford it.

*Sob*

A tragedy.

Then go to the LOCAL school then if you are that hard up.[/quote:3j3rkw0p]

That is NOT what I meant! What I'm saying is, the point people are making is that "middle class" people send their children to these posh schools because they're saved the money of college fees. If they're no longer able to pay for private schools how in god's name would they be able to pay college fees? It doesn't make sense to bring back the fees when everyone is being hit by the credit crunch because lots of those people who would have been able to pay during the good times but didn't have to won't be able to afford it anymore.[/quote:3j3rkw0p]

D'oh. If you cannot pay you get a grant. If you can pay you don't. It really is quite simple and elementary.

You make it sound as though the nasty government is taking a right of education from starving middle class people living in dire poverty.[/quote:3j3rkw0p]

Anyone who makes a statment like that clearly has never had to apply for an education grant while on a low income.
The means tests in other areas like medical cards are bad, but the third level grants really take the piss.

[NotDevsSon]

[quote=Universal_001][quote=NotDevsSon][quote=SineadW][quote=NotDevsSon]

The number of students entering 3rd Level Institutes has risen considerably since the abolition of fees. I think it's a terrible idea to bring them back! Producing top-quality graduates is essential for the future of the Irish economy..

Yes we should retain our overcrowded degree mill third level system where Irish students cannot compete on a level footing with foreign students because the cash hunger of the university requires them. Then we wonder why we are falling behind in the "knowledge economy". All so the children of the upper middle class can go to a nice private secondry school rather than slumming it with the plebs. Perish the thought.

Free Fees was a badly thought out failure by a minister who was desparate to save her own skin. Thankfully she failed in that too.

I resent that. Going to a private school is nothing to do with avoiding "slumming it with the plebs" for a lot of people, actually you may find that a lot of state schools are better facilitated and funded than "private schools". Sometimes you're only paying fees for smaller class sizes, nothing else. Nice doesn't factor into some "private" schools.
They'd be better off sorting the primary education section first, it's the real mess.

All the more reason to charge fees and invest the money in the education sector that applies to everyone, rather than giving relying on free fees which is just a middle-class give-away.

Yes that would be a lovely idea, except for the fact that the global financial problems are having an effect on "middle class" people. You won't see them sending their children to lovely "posh" secondary schools anymore - can't afford it.

*Sob*

A tragedy.

Then go to the LOCAL school then if you are that hard up.[/quote:2zjh2tvy]

That is NOT what I meant! What I'm saying is, the point people are making is that "middle class" people send their children to these posh schools because they're saved the money of college fees. If they're no longer able to pay for private schools how in god's name would they be able to pay college fees? It doesn't make sense to bring back the fees when everyone is being hit by the credit crunch because lots of those people who would have been able to pay during the good times but didn't have to won't be able to afford it anymore.[/quote:2zjh2tvy]

D'oh. If you cannot pay you get a grant. If you can pay you don't. It really is quite simple and elementary.

You make it sound as though the nasty government is taking a right of education from starving middle class people living in dire poverty.[/quote:2zjh2tvy]

Anyone who makes a statment like that clearly has never had to apply for an education grant while on a low income.
The means tests in other areas like medical cards are bad, but the third level grants really take the piss.[/quote:2zjh2tvy]

How do you think I got two degrees? I had to get a grant to get through college. (And I have had in the past to rely on a medical card.)

Fees are coming back, get used to it. Lobby to make sure the grants system is updated, instead of whinging about the unfairness of those who can afford to pay for something having to pay for it while those who cannot having it paid for them.

[Defeated Romanticist]

The intellectual audacity of some of the responses on this thread.

Such as the accusation that FF are only doing this now because of the economy. The fact of the matter is that Noel Dempsey wanted to do this years ago and got souted down by an unholy alliance of Joe Duffy(shamelessly), the PDs(shamefully), and the Teacher's and Student's unions (greedily).

Then their is the whining about underfunded 1st and 2nd level education. Nevermind the fact that the best way of funding them adequetly and thus helping the less well off would be to stop subsidising the wealthiest in society under the bogus cover of helping the less well off(probably the bottom 3/4 of the nation).

The growth in private education has been driven by the blanket abolition of free fees. Anyone who denies that simply isn't living in the real world.

Third level education inlike first and second isn't a right, it's a privilage. It unlike 1st and 2nd vastly increases the earning potential of its beneficiaries. While I not only have no problem with people fullfilling their potential unimpeeded but activly support it, it cannot see how anyone to the left of a Cardinal Richelieu could defend a govt program which uses the taxes of all to benefit the few above and beyond the majority.

I wouldn't be surprised if Batt O'Keefe was brought in to do this to then "take one for the team". Although it is fairly clear that many in Fine Gael would support this even if they wouldn't shout it from the rooftop, this demonstrates the futility or anyone who considers themselves anyway right of centre supporting FG. They clearly could never do this in govt because of the obfuscation of Labour. Once again to use a hackneyed phrase; if Fianna Fáil don't do it, it won't get done.

PS. NDS has a point. The grant system is a joke. Every farmer and self-employed person in the country with a kid in college would be in penury if the statements on their grant forms were to be believed