Register to Comment
Page 3 of 63 FirstFirst 123451353 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 626
Like Tree121Likes
  1. #21
    livingstone livingstone is offline
    livingstone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    22,550

    Quote Originally Posted by A Voice View Post
    No, it doesn't.

    I've highlighted what it's about, from your own mouth.

    If it was about dyslexia, then the issue would, and should, arise for all subjects. Dyslexia is not a language-specific issue; it is a written discourse issue. To get a legitimate dyslexia exemption, you need to have problems with spelling that affect any discipline that requires extensive reading and writing. English, history, and geography will top that list.
    That's just not true. There are particular difficulties in language learning associated with dyslexia. As well as difficulty with reading and writing, dyslexia can affect language learning in terms of vocab, pronunciation and linking sounds to letters. That is more acute for some languages than others (and Irish can be one of the harder ones to learn).

    Of course there are also difficulties associated with certain subjects compared to others because they involve a lot of reading and writing - but with the exception of English, none are compulsory. And with languages, while the level of reading and writing is part of the difficulty it is not the only difficulty.

    So it brings us back to the situation that where a non-dyslexic student might be able to get by in two languages, a dyslexic student simply might not have the bandwidth to undertake that level of difficult learning. If that is the case, it is unreasonable to expect them to drop a more useful language ahead of dropping Irish.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  2. #22
    livingstone livingstone is offline
    livingstone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    22,550

    Quote Originally Posted by recedite View Post
    You're living in cloud cuckoo land. Humans don't have "available bandwidth".
    Yes they do. At a very practical level, there are only so many hours in the week. If it takes a non-dyslexic student an hour to do their Irish and French homework, and that takes a dyslexic student two and a half hours, because it is harder for them to read, to memorise vocab, to link sounds to letters etc, then that is a very practical way in which we all have a particular bandwidth, and we all have to make choices as to how to use it.

    There may well be a tiny minority who have such difficulty with languages that they should be excused from learning them. The fact that large numbers are obtaining certs to avoid irish, but still going on to study living languages is nothing to do with that.
    I don't know what the level of the minority is, but yes, I agree. But the fact that a dyslexic student chooses to learn one foreign language doesn't mean they are not dyslexic, or can also then do Irish as well.

    My sister is dyslexic and has dropped Irish because she found it exceptionally difficult. Her Irish home work would take her hours every night. She also dropped French. She kept on German because she found it didn't have the same disproportionate effect on her time (or her confidence) because of the way the language is structured.

    Your claim seems to be that by studying German this proves that what? She's not dyslexic? She should have no problem learning Irish as well as German and French? It's pretty silly logic. She made a choice that she didn't want to leave school with no foreign language. She chose to keep the foreign language that she could manage most. She also chose not to spend hours every night struggling with Irish, and spend more time on other subjects.

    Its because they see Irish as a waste of time and effort. There is no justification for making it mandatory in this day and age. Edward AKA Eamon De Valera is long dead.
    Interesting fact BTW, the name Sinead was invented by Dev for his wife because there was no Irish version of Jane at the time.
    I don't disagree with making Irish optional, certainly for the leaving cert.

    But your logic is flawed in thinking that the simple fact that someone with an Irish exemption studies another language couldn't possibly be dyslexic. That is just wrong.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  3. #23
    recedite recedite is offline

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    561

    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    Yes they do. At a very practical level, there are only so many hours in the week. If it takes a non-dyslexic student an hour to do their Irish and French homework, and that takes a dyslexic student two and a half hours, because it is harder for them to read, to memorise vocab, to link sounds to letters etc, then that is a very practical way in which we all have a particular bandwidth, and we all have to make choices as to how to use it.
    It might also take them longer to do their history homework, if there is a lot of reading involved. Your sister found German easier than Irish, as any English speaker would because Olde English in Chaucer's time was originally a Germanic language.
    That's a good use of available TIME, given she may need to have at least one language for uni. Time, not bandwidth.
    All students have to make subject choices. Its always better to spend more time at the subjects you are good at.

    Do you believe one third of a class could be genuinely dyslexic? If the mandatory Irish thing gets dropped tomorrow I can guarantee you that the levels of (claimed) dyslexia in this country would plummet.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  4. #24
    A Voice A Voice is offline
    A Voice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    6,533

    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    That's just not true. There are particular difficulties in language learning associated with dyslexia. As well as difficulty with reading and writing, dyslexia can affect language learning in terms of vocab, pronunciation and linking sounds to letters. That is more acute for some languages than others (and Irish can be one of the harder ones to learn).

    Of course there are also difficulties associated with certain subjects compared to others because they involve a lot of reading and writing - but with the exception of English, none are compulsory. And with languages, while the level of reading and writing is part of the difficulty it is not the only difficulty.

    So it brings us back to the situation that where a non-dyslexic student might be able to get by in two languages, a dyslexic student simply might not have the bandwidth to undertake that level of difficult learning. If that is the case, it is unreasonable to expect them to drop a more useful language ahead of dropping Irish.
    What is not true? That dyslexia doesn't revolve around issues associated uniquely with language learning?

    The key marker for dyslexia difficulty is what is sometimes (a bit imprecisely) referred to as how phonetic a language is, or more frequently, the orthographic depth of a language. This is the degree to which there is a clear letter-sound correspondence in the language, and the consequent regularity of the language. English is notoriously 'deep' orthographically. French is deeper, so trickier, than Irish.

    So a dyslexic's problems are manifest and numerous in her dealings with English all across the curriculum, not merely when doing the subject of English, and notably in discourse-heavy subjects.

    Dropping Irish and retaining French makes little sense from our vantage point in this discussion. The reason it happens in Ireland, of course, is the one you alluded to: the perceived usefulness of the languages in question.
    Last edited by A Voice; 14th June 2018 at 05:16 PM.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  5. #25
    Barroso Barroso is offline

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    3,403

    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    The fact that they studied other languages doesn't really say much.

    For some people, studying languages is made exponentially harder because of, for example, dyslexia. Some students, as a result, do not study languages. Others decide that they can put in the effort for one language but not two or three, and so they choose the one that will be of most value to them in career terms.
    I'm probably behind the curve here, but I always thought that dyslexia had to do with writing & reading a text rather than with learning a language?
    In other words, different teaching methods would enable these pupils to learn to speak and understand Irish, while reducing the written input.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  6. #26
    Barroso Barroso is offline

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    3,403

    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    That's just not true. There are particular difficulties in language learning associated with dyslexia. As well as difficulty with reading and writing, dyslexia can affect language learning in terms of vocab, pronunciation and linking sounds to letters. That is more acute for some languages than others (and Irish can be one of the harder ones to learn).

    Of course there are also difficulties associated with certain subjects compared to others because they involve a lot of reading and writing - but with the exception of English, none are compulsory. And with languages, while the level of reading and writing is part of the difficulty it is not the only difficulty.

    So it brings us back to the situation that where a non-dyslexic student might be able to get by in two languages, a dyslexic student simply might not have the bandwidth to undertake that level of difficult learning. If that is the case, it is unreasonable to expect them to drop a more useful language ahead of dropping Irish.
    From wikipedia (I know some people feel it's not up to scratch, but we're on p.ie here)
    Dyslexia, also known as reading disorder, is characterized by trouble with reading despite normal intelligence.[2][7] Different people are affected to varying degrees.[4] Problems may include difficulties in spelling words, reading quickly, writing words, "sounding out" words in the head, pronouncing words when reading aloud and understanding what one reads
    ....
    Treatment involves adjusting teaching methods to meet the person's needs.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  7. #27
    redneck redneck is offline
    redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    5,415

    Quote Originally Posted by Lagertha View Post
    Most Irish people, including myself, speak very little Irish and understand even less of it when we hear it spoken or see it written down. I have no idea what the English translation for most of the names of local housing estates is because they are in Irish and I don't speak Irish. It is time to make the Irish language an optional subject and use the time it takes up in the average school day for more practical things like extra classes in math or other subjects which many children struggle with. While we're at it we can get rid of all religious lessons of all denominations too and replace it with something else.
    Ní aontaiom leis an scéal seo. Bíonn an Gaeilge ann i lár na bpobail.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  8. #28
    redneck redneck is offline
    redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    5,415

    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    Of course it does.

    The fact is that for someone with dyslexia, the difficulty associated with learning two languages may simply not be sustainable. The difficulty with learning one language may just about be tolerable for some.

    For those kids, we have a choice:

    (a) tell them unless they are prepared to learn two languages, they can't do any

    (b) tell them that unlike their peers, because of a specific learning condition, they have to leave school without a useful European language because we insist that they use their available bandwidth to learn Irish instead
    Irish is a great language. It should be compulsory. If it was dropped what would take over? I say let the stupid people have their dyslexia certs and let the others learn Irish.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  9. #29
    redneck redneck is offline
    redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    5,415

    There is a real cultural war going on at the moment. There is a campaign against Gaelic football. And a long standing campaign (over 500 years) against an teanga Gaeilge.
    The campaign against Gaelic football is by Rugby and Soccer fans.
    The campaign against an Teanga Gaeilge is by Irish and Ulster Unionists.
    Slán
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  10. #30
    fifilawe fifilawe is offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    839

    The problems English speakers have with learning Irish is the structure of the sentences in Irish.All Celtic languages have a V-S-O structure in the sentence.The Germanic languages on which English is based is S-V-O structure.If the teachers from primary school onwards could get that across to the pupils and repeat it ad infinitum it would be a great help.
    I am a Native speaker so I did not have to learn Irish it came to me like breathing and walking it is my heritage and instinct.A few simple basic rules is all it takes to get off on the right way to learn a new language.Stringing words together in a sentence in the proper order is the most basic rule to learn in any language.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

Page 3 of 63 FirstFirst 123451353 ... LastLast
Sign in to CommentRegister to Comment