Catholic Church giving over control of Primary Schools.

[Wolverine]

The State guarantees not to prefer any religion.

And why should an Atheist's PAYE fund Catholic (or any other religion's) Schools?

[corkman2007]

It's been the case since 1999 and will continue to be the case. As time goes by, more and more schools will be funded by the state to this extent; eventually the majority of schools will have been funded in this way.

In addition the salaries, equipment, and renovations in older schools are still funded by the state

Where in my proposal does it say that parents should be responsible for setting up schools? The state should be responsible for setting up schools.

If parents aren't happy with the state schools then they should be free to set up their own school, either religious or secular, but without state funding.

Why should Catholic parents' PAYE income tax fund secular schools?

Fine. Let's adopt a modified version of the German system. In Germany you can choose to register as a member of a particular religion (AFAIK it's currently restricted to a relatively small number of religions) and pay an extra tax which is allocated to that religion.

Let's say we adopt a modified version of this system in Ireland. If you're Catholic you register as a Catholic for tax purposes; if you're Church of Ireland you register as an Anglican etc. etc.

Let's say 75% of taxpayers registered as Catholics and 15% as 'no religion'. 75% of the primary and secondary education budget would go to fund Catholic schools; 15% would go to fund secular schools. The proportion of the budget spent an a particular type of school would rise or fall in any year depending on the proportion of taxpayers registered as religious or not religious. Religions where the number of registered taxpayers is too small to support a school would have to support secular schools; if they wanted to provide religious education to the children of their members they could but with only a very small level of state support in proportion to their numbers.

[cactus flower]

Surely if the state pays the bulk of the cost of building the schools and the bulk of their ongoing costs, the state should take the schools into its ownership? Once that's done the schools should offer a secular education within a secular ethos.


As a start towards this all new schools should be owned, built, funded and managed directly by the Dept. of Education.

100% corkman

[descartes]

I think it is the responsibility of the State to provide education for the children. This does not mean that parents cannot privately provide education. I also believe that the State has largely lived up to its responsibility in this regard.

It now seems that the States huge investment in this area may gradually was not properly secured and over time this will become profit for those who legally own it.

This is something that should be looked into.

This has little to do with the ethos of the school but all to do with money. All one has to do is look at what happened where schools have been taken over in the past.

I feel that up to now the religous more or less made their own rules and our governaments avoided at all costs crossing them.

[descartes]

One would have to question our political masters actions in the very recent past.

It seems that in the abuse issue the Church were baled out at high cost to the tax payer.

In the mean time the Church are sitting on this huge asset, the value of which they will re-coup in time.

Could anyone clarify for me the ownership structure of a typical country national school where the RC bishop is the patron

[cactus flower]

The Diocesan Board owns the school and it is leased to the Board of Management of the school. State owns nothing ( this is only a particular school, can't vouch for the others).

However I have come across Church lands registered in the Land Registry by individual priests.

[corkman2007]

One would have to question our political masters actions in the very recent past.

It seems that in the abuse issue the Church were baled out at high cost to the tax payer.

In the mean time the Church are sitting on this huge asset, the value of 'which they will re-coup in time.

Could anyone clarify for me the ownership structure of a typical country national school where the RC bishop is the patron

Typically such a school would be owned by the Church, either by the Archbishop/Bishop or by a trust set up by the Church. The same goes for the land on which the school has been built

Only a tiny number of schools are owned by the state:

The vast majority of primary schools in Ireland are privately owned and supported by the different churches. The state pays the bulk of the building and running costs and a local contribution is made towards the running costs.

National schools are privately owned - in general by the relevant church authorities. In the case of Catholic schools, the owners are usually the diocesan trustees; the same is true for Church of Ireland schools. Other denominational schools usually have a board of trustees nominated by the church authorities. Multi-denominational schools are usually owned by a limited company or board of trustees.

Gaelscoileanna may be denominational and come under the same patronage as Catholic schools but some have their own limited company.

Ownership of different types of schools

There are 9 "Model schools", which are owned by the state

About 60 schools are vested in the Minister for Finance - they date from before independence and no new schools will come into this category.

The state itself has not directly established any new schools.

About 30 newly established Gaelscoileanna are vested in the Minister for Education and Science.

...

There are a number of special schools owned by the state.

The vast majority of national schools are owned by the religious denominations. There are deeds of trust signed by the owners, which ensure that the school will continue to be used as such.

The special schools have a range of different owners - some are owed by the Department of Education and Science, some by the Commissioners of Public Works, some by Health Service Executive and some by religious orders.

That makes a total of 99 ordinary national schools in state ownership.

There are 44 Educate Together non-denominational National Schools.

There are 135 Gaelscoileanna in the state (outside of the Gaeltacht): "about 40 [of these] are under the patronage of An Foras Patrunachta. A couple of these are multidenominational and 8 of them are 'inter-denominational'." The principal of an 'inter-denominational' (i.e. mixed Catholic/Protestant) National School was sacked in a dispute over the teaching of religion during school hours. (http://struggle.ws/wsm/ws/2002/72/dunboyne.html)

Assuming that the other 95 Gaelscoileanna are non-denominational, that makes a grand total of 246 state-owned and non/multi-denominational ordinary National Schools out of a total of 3,160 ordinary National Schools.

Put another way, over 90% of ordinary national schools are denominational.

[Colmog]

There are 44 Educate Together non-denominational National Schools.

Just a small but significant correction; Educate Together are multi-denominational, not non-denominational. A common misconception.

ET schools do have a religious education programme...teaching children about all faith systems and religions....but there is no religious instruction as part of the normal school day.

Where individual children or families wish to use school facilities for religious instruction, e.g. for preparation for first communion etc, such instruction is facilitated as an extra-curricular, parent led activity and takes place outside of the normal school day and programme.

[corkman2007]

There are 44 Educate Together non-denominational National Schools.

Just a small but significant correction; Educate Together are multi-denominational, not non-denominational. A common misconception.

ET schools do have a religious education programme...teaching children about all faith systems and religions....but there is no religious instruction as part of the normal school day.

Where individual children or families wish to use school facilities for religious instruction, e.g. for preparation for first communion etc, such instruction is facilitated as an extra-curricular, parent led activity and takes place outside of the normal school day and programme.

My mistake. That sounds sensible enough. Why can't it be implemented in all schools? Surely that's enough to keep everyone except the most die-hard happy?