Science education failing the knowledge economy?

[wombat]

You can have the finest roof on any house, but if the foundations crumble, what's it worth
Primary education is absolutely paramount and it is the most neglected section of the whole system

I agree its the foundation but is it the most neglected? The older ones among us can remember 50+ in the class, there is no comparison with what we went through and what the kids have now. My concern is that the teachers get spread too thinly if they have too many subjects to cover. I suspect teacher training is still of a high standard, my criticism would be that poor teachers are hard to weed out. A foundation is not much use if its not built on, we need to give all kids a basic understanding of science. Look at some of the discussions on the website if you want evidence of the failure of our science education.

[Bobb]

You can have the finest roof on any house, but if the foundations crumble, what's it worth

Mol na nóg 'gus tiocfaidh siad, tosach maith leath na hoibre, sin a bhfuil, go bhfóire dia orainn

[Bobb]

mol na hóga

we was taut irish very bad in national skool

[Auditor #9]

The knowledge economy ? Will people ever cop themselves on.. knowledge economy my backside

Nothing more than a "cliche" .. political management speak

....A free laptop for every secondary student ?

Kids don't have enough bloody text books in primary school in many places.. what the ************************ good is a free laptop for every student the minute they turn twelve years old?

As I said myself during a debate at the time, the only value that proposal would have had, would be in keeping students quiet on Bebo while the teachers carried on the education of the small few who made it out of primary with the most basic of skills

Next time you hear a politician talk about "The Knowledge Economy", try to resist punching them

Hate to agree with SF but this idea that teachers must teach every fad that comes along is daft. However, while we must improve primary education, we cannot neglect 3rd level. To be cynical about it, we need a quick fix so that we can gain the time to bring the primary sector up to speed.

My sentiments exactly as a past sub teacher and a potential future primary school principal :mrgreen: .

Whatever about the universities going back to funding (in fairness those who can afford it should pay), a concerted effort should be made to deal with issues in the primary school system which tend to be pupil/teacher ratios. The lack of males is a potential timebomb and it would be better to err on side of caution and incentivise males to take up those roles. Dropping the level of Irish one needs could be a good start (in my case ). Males tend to be more interested in science and technology too, subjects which do get attention in primary level curriculums now unlike in our thirtysomethings+ days. This observation is more from experience than prejudice however and I hope it doesn't offend anyone.

Social problems which turn up later could also be caught at primary stage and this means family support which the govt is going some way to address with adequate funding. Some schools get money thrown at them for psychologists, SNAs, support staff etc. but we just don't seem to be as able to build more buildings as we do houses...

[Auditor #9]

You can have the finest roof on any house, but if the foundations crumble, what's it worth
Primary education is absolutely paramount and it is the most neglected section of the whole system

I agree its the foundation but is it the most neglected? The older ones among us can remember 50+ in the class, there is no comparison with what we went through and what the kids have now. My concern is that the teachers get spread too thinly if they have too many subjects to cover. I suspect teacher training is still of a high standard, my criticism would be that poor teachers are hard to weed out. A foundation is not much use if its not built on, we need to give all kids a basic understanding of science. Look at some of the discussions on the website if you want evidence of the failure of our science education.

Psychiatric services for children is also too small a fraction of the HSE budget for psychiatric services in general and should be bolstered more for the same reasons that RoC gives for the education system. And for reasons which impact directly on school children whose education is hampered by peers, inside and outside of the classroom.

[patslatt]

Im not sure increasing salary of a science teacher is going to do very much. Working is science is a pretty crap job at the base level, and the conditions, pay and terms of a teaching job more than match anything industry can offer. I know plenty of people working in science, got good degrees and planning on heading into the profession. And there are plenty of jobs available when you compare to Arts grads.

Definitely increasing funding at primary and especially secondary level education, with proper labs and increased resourcing for hiring a technician or two depending on the size of the school will go a long way.

If science teacher pay and terms are more than a match for industry's as you state, why is there a shortage of teachers in physics,chemistry and advanced maths? Is it because most of the scientists interested in teaching are not in those three fields or is it down to a shortage of funding for labs? If the former, the Department of Education should emulate England's £5,000 bounty for retraining scientists mentioned in the opening post.

[ibis]

Im not sure increasing salary of a science teacher is going to do very much. Working is science is a pretty crap job at the base level, and the conditions, pay and terms of a teaching job more than match anything industry can offer. I know plenty of people working in science, got good degrees and planning on heading into the profession. And there are plenty of jobs available when you compare to Arts grads.

Definitely increasing funding at primary and especially secondary level education, with proper labs and increased resourcing for hiring a technician or two depending on the size of the school will go a long way.

If science teacher pay and terms are more than a match for industry's as you state, why is there a shortage of teachers in physics,chemistry and advanced maths? Is it because most of the scientists interested in teaching are not in those three fields or is it down to a shortage of funding for labs? If the former, the Department of Education should emulate England's £5,000 bounty for retraining scientists mentioned in the opening post.

Those who battle through the inadequacy of most current science teaching, and don't mind the fact that it's harder to get the points by picing harder subjects, and who then don't mind, in turn, that science courses at university are also a good deal harder both in content and workload than most arts courses, are not doing it to become teachers.

Science journalism suffers from an almost identical problem.

[Auditor #9]

Are we/should we be a knowledge economy in the first place? Is this field something which we excel in/don't excel in naturally or is that itself not a valid point because, in any society you will get a certain amount of scientists/engineers/technical people and it is a matter of nurturing them, which could be financial incentive? What makes us so special and if we are not particularly special i.e. we have neither the culture nor the natural ability, why should we push for anything like this at all?

Do we have this culture, however, or could we take to it like fish to water if we haven't? No point in wasting time and money on these things if we're going to make a balls of it before we begin because naturally we are a nation of farmers who play music occasionally.

[patslatt]

I have a child who has "special needs". In reality he has the mental age of a 3 yo and has started school. The school is still awaiting assessment from the boards and so on and in the meantime the teacher as to try controlling him. Anyway. I was over talking to the headmistress. And she was telling me that it was refreshing to find parents who tried to help the school. Most parents want the schools to be the parents - they cannot eat properly, have no manners, no respect, cannot do basic things like use the toilet, are out of control, and if they get rebuked the parents suddenly emerge for a shouting match.

ROC you are correct. They want the children but are not prepared to be parents - their careers and so on are more important and so hand over the rearing to the schools.

Keep the fight going ROC - some day some one will see sense and we will get back to traditional schooling and traditional parents.

Press reports say that English primary schools are increasingly experiencing cases of normal children enrolling who have not developed the ability to speak normally for their age. Apparently,their parents don't speak to them much or spend time with them,and probably leave them in front of their own TVs.

[Bobb]

Might be more money to go around if hundreds of teachers didn't have to be appointed just to teach kids to speak english, just a thought.

And that's not even considering the costs of providing an education free of charge to immigrant kids in the first place.
The taxes low paid immigrants pay don't cover the costs their presence places on the state. Hence it's lunacy to bring in people to perform low paid jobs.