Science education failing the knowledge economy?

[stringjack]

That's certainly true. However, can you name a field in the humanities in which materials are harder to reach than in any of the sciences?

I know of a project, for example, which is attempting to determine the content of libraries in Britain over the past seven hundred years or so. Tracking down the remaining, extant indices, etc., is quite difficult. By contrast, at least in the social sciences, raw data is deposited in libraries, where it is available to anyone with access to the library (I don't know how easy it is to get access to raw data in the physical sciences).

Well, no - I am arguing about those who don't intend a research career at all. If I chose to really put some weight behind my various interests in pre-industrial history, I feel that I could make an original contribution to the field - however little respect I was accorded by professionals. I know people who have contributed (or, better, feel they have) in exactly this way to various fields in the humanities.

You're hedging a bit here, with references to people 'feeling' that they are making an original contribution, and I'm not sure why.

However, despite my interest, and indeed my training and qualifications, in environmental science, I am aware of no such contribution I can make to the field without going full-time or part-time at some institution with the necessary resources. There is simply nothing I can do except literature surveys, which do not produce original contributions in the sciences.

In one sense, that simply isn't true, as far as I can see. Theoretical work in any science is still part of the science, without necessitating any actual collection of data or testing of hypotheses (to be more precise, one can be a scientist, and propose testable hypotheses, without ever testing the hypotheses personally). Equally, there are some sciences in which simply replying to published articles criticising the structure of the work done would be a great service to the scientific enterprise (I'm looking at you, behavioural genetics ).

[stringjack]

This absolute focus on research totally misses the point.

Hmmm. As ibis says, above, we may have become a little sidetracked.

[ibis]

This absolute focus on research totally misses the point.

Hmmm. As ibis says, above, we may have become a little sidetracked.

It certainly wouldn't be a first, I'm afraid.

[riven]

From engineering

The main outlets for enginners in ireland are not progressive companies (aside from the food industry). e.g. Pharma is a very slow lumbering giant where the vast majority of engineeris push validation pens rather than optimising the process. Engineers are not highly rated in these companies.

Our system has feed to this. It has given engineers and science grads that have little experience with real world problems (i.e. they design it but dont built it, they do not realise what 30m high means etc). This has worked with the sucess of many Irish engineers becoming mangers. However as for science, that is a failure as theose managers are now more business that engineering.

Companies did not want pure engineeres they want engi/manager types. Our system has copes well with this demand. However there is now a shortfall of real engineers and if this country becomes R&D based, this would be disasterouus (lots of ideas not relaisable process).

[riven]

This absolute focus on research totally misses the point.

Outside of university life, nobody connects research and teaching. The two are really quite unrelated. People who want to teach are quite happy to do so at 2nd level. The research requirements at 3rd level - combined with the dificulty in getting a job - are a disincentive to those in terested in teaching, not an incentive.

Science education in Ireland has many problems, but people interested in doing the job is not one of them. There is no shortage of science teachers here. The presumption that there is, is wrong.

Most of the irish education system does not involve research to any extent. You have a point though. In drugs and in membrane manufacture (for membrane separations), most of the new drugs/membranes are discarded (they say with drugs the ratio of good to bad is 1 in 1000-5000). Pepole in these fields are generally unaware of the real application involved and thus do not care if they get good results. Some of the broad sweeping crap from journals can be quite amusing (i.e. this membrane is good; right even though it takes millions of dosh to make on a large scale)