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  1. #211
    potholedogger potholedogger is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by The System Works View Post
    I went to a Catholic ethos school in Ireland for a period, but still had to effectively sit through religious instruction. I wasn't allowed to leave the room for insurance reasons, same for the other kids who got exemptions.
    I found it more entertaining to ask lots of questions the Brothers found difficult to answer. They tended to get very angry in answering questions.

    One of them accused me of being a communist!
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  2. #212
    Half Nelson Half Nelson is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    I cannot find Maria's response to this question, nor anyone else's. I have, in the past, regularly come across opinions like that expressed here by the 'religious' posters, that atheist or agnostic students should just grin and bear such services. However, the same people usually back away from suggesting that, say, children of the muslim faith should be forced to attend catholic/christian services.
    If a school professes an ethos of multi-denominationalism then such things as multi-denominational services are to be expected, so everybody should be prepared to accept what they agreed to when they registered.

    But, on the whole, schools are reasonable and do what they can to accommodate differing beliefs or none.

    It usually comes down to practicalities, because principals, like most of us, don't need the grief.
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  3. #213
    sondagefaux sondagefaux is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Half Nelson View Post
    It may be, if there are cost or insurance implications, or if everybody who wants to be elsewhere demands their hallway and their book.
    Insurance implications? Are you saying that pupils aren't insured when they're on school property anyway? Do pupils need to be supervised at all times? I doubt that teachers or other school staff accompany pupils to the toilet, so I don't see why they need to accompany them when they're sitting down reading a book. Neither should insurance and/or cost considerations trump the constitutional rights of individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half Nelson View Post
    Schools are not democracies, nor can they afford to be.
    Ireland is a democracy. The people of Ireland voted in favour of a constitution which gives the parents of school pupils the right to withdraw their children from religious instruction. Again we have a situation where you're willing to forego the constitutional rights of individuals for reasons of religion.
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  4. #214
    Podolski1.5 Podolski1.5 is offline
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    It is time for total separation of church and state. If people wish to have religious instruction for their children let them run Sunday schools or other extra-curricular events at their own expense and outside of publicly owned buildings. The state should guarantee people's civil liberties but should be completely removed from any involvement with religion.

    I went to a predominantly Protestant schol myself, it was under the patron of the local Church of Ireland bishop. Though nominally brought up RC, I had more or less given up on religion completely by my mid teens. Twice a year, at Easter and at Christmas, we were obliged to attend religious services in the local cathedral. Luckily my house was on the route there and I never once attended, dropping to the back of the procession and doing a runner when the coast was clear ( a welcome half-day at the end of term).

    I also had to attend religion classes in school twice a week which I did for a while but my persistent debunking of religion eventually led to a concession, I was allowed spend the period in the school library instead. On the upside I was allowed time off to attend mass on Catholic feast days. Never went there either but it was handy for finishing forgotten homework before the next class.
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  5. #215
    Hewson Hewson is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toland View Post
    Forgive my incredulity
    You're forgiven, but if I didn't mean it I wouldn't have written it. I don't know why such a modest statement should make you incredulous.
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  6. #216
    wickalah wickalah is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by MariaMcN View Post
    Schools can't cater for the idiosyncratic beliefs or lack of them of every individual student.
    I agree completely, and I think that this is what we should take from this incident.

    All religious beliefs (and, arguably, atheistic non-belief) are idiosyncratic and therefore should not be part of the school curriculum.
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  7. #217
    Hewson Hewson is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    I cannot find Maria's response to this question, nor anyone else's. I have, in the past, regularly come across opinions like that expressed here by the 'religious' posters, that atheist or agnostic students should just grin and bear such services. However, the same people usually back away from suggesting that, say, children of the muslim faith should be forced to attend catholic/christian services.
    Nobody should be forced to do anything agaist their will, particularly in relation to beliefs/non-beliefs, but the notion that such a drama would be made about an incident where nobody lost limbs or their life says more about the mentality of the parents than it does about the school. The school were in the wrong on this occasion. So what? They'll all survive the trauma.

    I've been to numerous Protestant and Muslim ceremonies, both here and abroad.

    I survived.
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  8. #218
    sondagefaux sondagefaux is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hewson View Post
    Nobody should be forced to do anything agaist their will, particularly in relation to beliefs/non-beliefs, but the notion that such a drama would be made about an incident where nobody lost limbs or their life says more about the mentality of the parents than it does about the school. The school were in the wrong on this occasion. So what? They'll all survive the trauma.

    I've been to numerous Protestant and Muslim ceremonies, both here and abroad.

    I survived.
    Ever been forced to attend an atheist ceremony?
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  9. #219
    Thac0man Thac0man is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post

    The student in the story above has said that he would be happy with an apology, but it would be interesting to see him take a case.
    After reading the article, I can see the point the young man is making. However confusion starts with the difference between being made attend an event where a religious aspect is expressed, and being forced to participate. If I were this young man, I would not be holding my breath for that apology.

    If he is claiming that he "would settle" for that apology, based on the percieved lack of respect that he was shown, then stating "“Although they are the majority, the Christians have no right to claim the entire school community as theirs or to force people to join their hollering." is not a good starting point for mutual respect. Again, force people, to join their hollering? Was he made pray? And was an event at the start of the school year, that involved others saying a prayer really so offensive? Alarmist or over sensitive athiesm like this is not the sort of thing that people tend to genuflect towards, no matter what their own belief. If its daubed in generalised insults, then doubly so. Nathan Young comes across as a prigish little jerk off. Bad for other kids his age to be, but commendable if expressed by an 'athiest'? People might want to be careful about how low the bar is being set here. This is not a Rosa Parks moment.

    On a related point, the description behind this "Irish Athiest" seems to suggest that he is English. I mean born in England, and Anglican? If he were an Irishman born into a religion in England, one would expect COI at least?

    I should add that I have spent two years in a VEC, as an athiest, and never found practices so objectionable that I felt the school should apologiseto me personally (or really at all). During my time in a VEC, the class I was in attended a funeral for an ex-teacher. Might that have been the trigger for such a Nathan Young style hissy fit?

    Last edited by Thac0man; 25th October 2012 at 09:37 AM.
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  10. #220
    The System Works The System Works is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by potholedogger View Post
    I found it more entertaining to ask lots of questions the Brothers found difficult to answer. They tended to get very angry in answering questions.

    One of them accused me of being a communist!
    I agree. In the later years everybody, even we who got exemptions, joined in the class discussions because they got more interesting and sophisticated. We were scolded by one teacher for 'asking too many questions'. That went for Catholics and Heathens alike. She even threatened to speak to our parents about it! This gave me a bad impression of Irish Catholicism. When I subsequently took classes at an Israeli yeshiva for the young and newly religious, Jews College in London, and Chabad, I was relieved at the atmosphere of questioning and inquiry. Asking questions is expected at all levels in Jewish religious instruction.

    That said, when I went to a Jesuit school in Boston I was very impressed with their teaching. Those Jesuits are good at what they do. They really do empower and develop the student.
    Last edited by The System Works; 25th October 2012 at 10:58 AM.
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