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Thread: Forbidden thoughts

  1. #1
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    Forbidden thoughts

    Interesting times ahead, as the MIT biology lecture by Professor Robert Weinberg below indicates. Of course, people would do well to consider Professor Steve Hsu's advice about group differences in average traits: it is important to note that group differences are statistical in nature and do not imply anything definitive about a particular individual. Rather than rely on the scientifically unsupported claim that we are all equal, it would be better to emphasize that we all have inalienable human rights regardless of our abilities or genetic makeup.

    Weinberg (@ 32:40): ... And what happens if one of these days people discover alleles for certain aspects of cognitive function? Chess playing ability. The ability to learn five different languages. The ability to remember strings of numbers. The ability to speak extemporaneously in front of a class, for what it's worth, for 50 minutes several times a week.

    [It seems improbable to me that such abilities will be controlled or strongly impacted by specific alleles. Rather, they are likely to be subtly influenced by large numbers of different genetic loci. But this doesn't necessarily affect the following discussion. Note also that Weinberg neglects the possibility of variation in direction of selection pressure experienced by different isolated groups.]

    Whatever ability you want, valued or not so valued, what if those alleles begin to come out? And here's the worse part. What if somebody begins to look for the frequency of those alleles in different ethnic groups scattered across this planet? Now, you will say to me, well, God has made all his children equal. But the fact is if you look at the details of human evolution, some of which I discussed with you a week ago, last week, you'll come to realize that most populations in humanity are the modern descendents of very small founder groups.

    ... So the fact is it's inescapable that different alleles are going to be present with different frequencies in different inbreeding populations of humanity or populations of humanity that traditionally have been genetically isolated from one another.

    It's not as if all the genes that we carry have been mixed with everybody else's genes freely over the last 100,000 years. Different groups have bred separately and have, for reasons that I've told you, founder affects and genetic drift, acquired different sets and different constellations of alleles. So what's going to happen then, I ask you without wishing to hear an answer because nobody really knows?

    Then for the first time there could be a racism which is based not on some kind of virulent ideology, not based on some kind of kooky versions of genetics, because the eugenicists in the beginning of the 20th century, as well as the Nazis hadn't had any idea about genetics, they were just using the word, even though they knew nothing about the science of genetics as we understand it today. But what happens if now for the first time we, i.e., you who begin to understand genetics, begin to perceive that there are, in fact, different populations of humanity that are endowed with different constellation of alleles that we imagine are more or less desirable?

    What's going to happen then? I don't know. But some scientists say, well, the truth must come out and that everything that can be learned should be learned, and we will learn how to digest it and we will learn how to live with that. But I'm not so sure that's the right thing. And you all have to wrestle with that as well. ...
    Information Processing: Forbidden thoughts
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    Politics.ie Regular Sheepy's Avatar
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    This research should be stopped - but only after we isolate the FF allele and find a way to get rid of that trait at the molecular level.
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    Shut down any future research on this at once - it is "WACIST, I tell you, WACIST!"
    Last edited by Dr Pat; 27th January 2012 at 09:28 AM.

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    Will there an App for that? Can be called "rate your mate perhaps"
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    Politics.ie Regular zakalwe1's Avatar
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    ah....that must be why the following perceptions exist for different races...
    asians are good at maths
    africans don't make great swimmers
    americans are dumb and really really really annoying
    irish are bleedin deadly and complete legends
    english are perfidious
    scots, if they stay away from the whisky, make great scientists and engineers
    welsh have great voices
    americans are really dumb and really really annoying
    italians are lotharios
    spanish are lazy
    etc etc etc....

    finally my lazy prejudices have scientific basis!!!

    did i mention americans are annoying and dumb?
    One who condones evils is just as guilty as the one who perpetrates it. -Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., civil-rights leader (1929-1968)

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    The basis of democracy is that we are all different but equal.

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    Politics.ie Regular yobosayo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zakalwe1 View Post
    ah....that must be why the following perceptions exist for different races...
    asians are good at maths
    africans don't make great swimmers
    americans are dumb and really really really annoying
    irish are bleedin deadly and complete legends
    english are perfidious
    scots, if they stay away from the whisky, make great scientists and engineers
    welsh have great voices
    americans are really dumb and really really annoying
    italians are lotharios
    spanish are lazy
    etc etc etc....

    finally my lazy prejudices have scientific basis!!!

    did i mention americans are annoying and dumb?
    Lad, you and yours are a dying civilization:

    DRUNK IRISH WOMEN THE ARTIFACTS OF A DYING CIVILIZATION

    Lastly, did I mention that you can combine two into one, meaning that one soul has proposed a temple of atheism in lieu of your more usual religious shrine, and so there's the one item, and what with your drunk Irish women as artifacts of dying civilization, that's the second item, you can go this route and combine the two, call it artifact of a dying Gaelic civilization kneels before and prays to the porcelain god (photo courtesy of rulehibernia.com):



    Edited to correct that last link there.

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    Politics.ie Regular zakalwe1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yobosayo View Post
    Lad, you and yours are a dying civilization:

    DRUNK IRISH WOMEN THE ARTIFACTS OF A DYING CIVILIZATION

    Lastly, did I mention that you can combine two into one, meaning that one soul has proposed a temple of atheism in lieu of your more usual religious shrine, and so there's the one item, and what with your drunk Irish women as artifacts of dying civilization, that's the second item, you can go this route and combine the two, call it artifact of a dying Gaelic civilization kneels before and prays to the porcelain god (photo courtesy of rulehibernia.com):



    Edited to correct that last link there.
    i take umbrage at your comment....i am not an irish woman so the irish men civilisation is alive and kicking.
    although, if at another level, the civilisation of irish women, as typified by Peig Sayers/Bean an Ti, is dying out, and is being replaced by the Seoige sisters/all the other TG4 weather girls....well then Viva la Revolucion!!!
    also, i believe that picture is of an american (refer to scientific evidence of american traits in post #6 above).
    thank you
    One who condones evils is just as guilty as the one who perpetrates it. -Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., civil-rights leader (1929-1968)

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    Politics.ie Regular Q-Tours's Avatar
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    It's an interesting observation but I wonder what useful knowledge could be gained from pursuing it.

    To make a reliable judgement about the genetically-determined (or perhaps "influenced") abilities of members of Population A to, say, be able to beat members of Population B at chess or running 100m, you would have to:

    • identify the alleles in question
    • calculate their distribution within both Populations A and B and compare the relative distributions (obviously, the greater the number of alleles that affect the characteristic in question, the more complex this will be)
    • determine the ranges of performance influenced (i.e. how much more/less successful at chess or running, and within what margins of error) among individuals having the alleles.
    • control for non-genetically determined influences (e.g. education, health & injury, cultural factors - should be easy, eh?)


    Even then, you are in only position to make a statement about likelihoods of performance within populations. You have no reliable grounds for making judgements or predictions about individuals unless you take a scrape and genetically sequence them. Which kinda puts you back in Square One.

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