What education reforms would you recommend?

[RobertW]

To be fair, when I challenged him about student ability and educational outcomes for educationally disadvantaged students, MrSaturdayKnight said in a later post that he worked in a DEIS school last year and would like to do so again. Not sticking my oar in, but it wasn't that long ago that I was a newbie and drew fire by not comprehensively laying out my stall.

I suspect that he is new to teaching.

Believe me I know how grind schools operate. . .For a start they are not schools!

[mrsaturdayknight]

Then if you work in a grind school then you know absolutely nothing about education and its requirements fpr educating the whole person.

You turn up to class and throw a bunch of notes at well motivated students.

Let's put you in an inner city school or a school where social problems right across the social spectrum exist and we'll see how good you think you are.

Incidentally you say you are sick of teachers moaning about the Croke Park Agreement and yet the CPA does not apply in grind schools?

Clearly you have not read my entire original post where I have stated that I have worked in the public sector schools. Your narrowed mindedness assumes that because I work in a grinds school I'm just a talking photocopier - you would be very wrong. As well as that you assume that all student in grinds school are eager to learn. I have discipline problems on a daily basis, I admit it is nothing like inner city schools, which I have experience of.

Yes CPA doesn't apply to me in my current employment, I never said it did. I have worked in a DEIS school with an ASD unit all last year. So I had kids with special needs and all the problems that come with poverty. So don't dare lay down the gauntlet to me until you know the full facts. Something I learned when I was in primary school was 'don't judge a book by the cover'.

[mrsaturdayknight]

I've been teaching for 5 years by the way.

[RobertW]

Yes CPA doesn't apply to me in my current employment, I never said it did.

Now if you don't mind me further quoting your good self:

Of course I would love to have a job in the public sector, and I am infuriated with some of what I have seen in the public sector. Where I currently work a member of staff will be let go if they are unable to teacher their subject. Yet I have seen public sector teachers rant and rave about the Croke Park agreement and how unfair it is. One teacher I recently heard said they should not bother putting in any effort into delivering on the Agreement because the government will have to withdraw from it sooner or later. What kind of attitude is that? At the end of the day the students come first, not the salaries or perks.

These two quotes from you are completely incompatible.

Teachers in grind schools are not inspected by professionals in Education and they are not required to be members of the Teaching Council or even to have an actual qualification in teaching.

I believe very much that you have discipline problems in your grind school. . . Not that this is ever publicised by the school itself in its business brochures (just like they do not publicise the many average grades obtained by students)

With respect the more you remain in a grind school the less you know about what education is about to be perfectly frank.

[mrsaturdayknight]

Now if you don't mind me further quoting your good self:



These two quotes from you are completely incompatible.

Teachers in grind schools are not inspected by professionals in Education and they are not required to be members of the Teaching Council or even to have an actual qualification in teaching.

I believe very much that you have discipline problems in your grind school. . . Not that this is ever publicised by the school itself in its business brochures (just like they do not publicise the many average grades obtained by students)

With respect the more you remain in a grind school the less you know about what education is about to be perfectly frank.

As I stated CPA doesn't apply to me. I would love to be in the public sector and would willingly work with CPA and even take further cuts. I am a member of the teaching council, because as I have repeatedly said I also do work in public sector schools. Therefore I am fully qualified, including a masters .

You sound quite bitter about grind schools, I'll be the first to admit that for the owners the are strictly a business. They are concerned with a good image of results and discipline. However I don't think that takes from the many good teachers I have worked with. Just like every school, no matter what its status, there are good and bad. The reward I get working in a school like this is to see students succeed when they were struggling with a subject. I'm not interested in points, but in a student's personal achievements.

If I could I would see and end to grind schools, all private schools. But I think the way cuts are going and class sizes are increasing, that private schools and grind schools may well increase in number over the coming years. I personally don't want to see education become a business. I work in a grinds school because I have to support myself, I won't apologise for that. I am eager to enter the public sector full-time but I also think reform is needed there.

[RobertW]

Mrsaturdayknight. . In which city is the grind school you work at?

[Kommunist]

I would consider increasing the work load in both primary and secondary school in both homework and study. From what I've observed and seen children come out barely educated on the world in general with teachers who almost know nothing themselves besides how many rivers and mountains there are in Ireland.

In my view secondary schools for the second part should have a broader option of what subjects are taught per school. Politics and economics should definitely part of the agenda as they are what helps people decide. If the population was better educated from the very start then we'd have less young people voting for parties like SF.

In my view I don't think enough is taught.

[Prester Jim]

It's a so called grinds school that I work in, so student fees pay for all the costs of the school and staff wages. I agree with you totally that it is unfair to expect the same from students who are coming from very different backgrounds. I was perhaps over-simplifying my point. I worked in a DEIS school last year and I have done regular work in similar schools. In some cases the goal is to keep students in school as long as possible and it is a challenging, but very rewarding task.

Yes parent expectation is a big factor in student performance. So obviously a big problem to tackle is to regain a respect for the value of education.

Anyway, keep up the good work. Would love to work in a DEIS school, I loved my time workkng in one last year.

Good luck with your career, try to get a job in a normal school as soon as possible as you should be thinking about your future and pension (if it exists at that stage).
As already said (and agreed with by you) there is a real difficulty assessing teacher performance based on student performance for a large variety of reasons not least peer and parents attitude to learning, supports in the school (more in private schools) etc.
Even year to year there is a significant variance between my class groups and my colleagues class groups.
Last year my LC class results would have me seem barely competent as 2 failed Honuors LC.
Behind each of those results is a very long story but even the shallowest analysis will reveal that both students did H against my strongly given advice, both put abslutely no effort in and both were form peer groups that sneered at effort and academic success, and their parents? Neither set turned up for PTMs in 5th year or 6th year.
My colleagues all had better results that year but this year there will be a total reversal as I have a (mostly) receptive and better movitated group.
Motivation in my current school is, however, minimal in even the best students compared to a girls school in Cork I worked in previously.

Basically assessing performance is extremely complicated and that is why I am very wary of any schemes involving league tables or brief inspections.
The Finnish method seems to be the best in this area as in all others.
Competent and motivated teachers are quickly evaluated by pupils, principal and colleagues.

[Prester Jim]

I would consider increasing the work load in both primary and secondary school in both homework and study. From what I've observed and seen children come out barely educated on the world in general with teachers who almost know nothing themselves besides how many rivers and mountains there are in Ireland.

In my view secondary schools for the second part should have a broader option of what subjects are taught per school. Politics and economics should definitely part of the agenda as they are what helps people decide. If the population was better educated from the very start then we'd have less young people voting for parties like SF.

In my view I don't think enough is taught.

The last thing we need is politicised education, critical thinking is ALL I would teach (and I do teach it) to these kids in that regard.

Many education experts think that homework is a waste of time, I personally don't like to give it to 5th and 6th years as they should be using the time for study and g their own work at that stage.
I do give it though as I have to give it as it is school and Dept. Ed policy.

[an modh coinniolach]

The last thing we need is politicised education, critical thinking is ALL I would teach (and I do teach it) to these kids in that regard.

Many education experts think that homework is a waste of time, I personally don't like to give it to 5th and 6th years as they should be using the time for study and g their own work at that stage.
I do give it though as I have to give it as it is school and Dept. Ed policy.

There seems to be a dissonance between the type of critical thinking that we would all like young people to be taught and the type of learning encouraged by Leaving Certificate. I don't know what the situation is like in the sciences but, from the point of view of the humanities and social sciences at third level, the current secondary school system does not appear to provide in-coming students with the necessary resources for independent learning, reasoned engagement or adequate written expression.


I know it is easy to look back on the past through rose-tinted glasses but it seems to me that our view of education has become so utilitarian and so exam-focussed that it is becoming less, ahem, useful.