What education reforms would you recommend?

[Shilts]

I'm just back from a "tour of duty" in South America
In Quito, Ecuador one day I noticed that the kids were finishing around 1pm.
I asked a friend "why so early?"

He explained that because the population of Quito had expanded greatly recently...
Instead of building lots of new schools...
They had an early shift of schoolkids starting at 7am and a second bunch starting at 2pm.

Works perfectly for them!!!

I thought "if I suggested that at home they'd think I was mad"

[mrsaturdayknight]

I'm a secondary school teacher, private sector (non-state funded).

I do work in mainstream secondary schools regularly and I have seen the good and the bad of both sides of the education system.

Due to the fact that I work in a completely private school, I only get paid for the hours I teach, not the preparation of notes, the correcting of exams and homework. I do not get paid for ANY holidays. Yet the result I get in my classes are excellent, I put this down to an environment that puts emphasis on achievement, study and a staff that are willing to put in many unpaid hours. Last year 1/3 of my students received an A2 or higher and 70% got a B3 of higher. This is because of the students hard work and willingness to engage with the subject material, I hasten to add.

I have seen teachers in the public sector, who are full-time and good salaries and pension schemes, complain about their students and repeatedly bad mouth them, using language that would shock the most liberal of people. I have seen staff do everything to avoid going into their classes, teachers with no IT skills, and those with very little knowledge of their subject requirements.... the list goes on. I must say that the private sector also has it's down side, often students who are academically weak, are ignored or neglected by teachers, I am not one of those.

Of course I would love to have a job in the public sector, and I am infuriated with some of what I have seen in the public sector. Where I currently work a member of staff will be let go if they are unable to teacher their subject. Yet I have seen public sector teachers rant and rave about the Croke Park agreement and how unfair it is. One teacher I recently heard said they should not bother putting in any effort into delivering on the Agreement because the government will have to withdraw from it sooner or later. What kind of attitude is that? At the end of the day the students come first, not the salaries or perks.

The point I am making is that teachers need to be made accountable for the outcome of their teaching.

In response to the original topic, I would make the following recommendations for secondary level.

1. Make teachers accountable for class performance, based on student ability.

2. Junior cycle should focus more on the basic mechanics of all subjects. E.g. Junior Cert English should focus more on grammar, syntax, spelling etc.

3. 1st to 4th Year should conjointly focus on educational and personal development. 5th and 6th Year should put more emphasis on subject knowledge and properly teacher students to analyse information rather than rote learning. Exams should be geared to wards student interpretation and creativity.

4. More project based IT work is essential in all subjects along with developing research skills.

5. Teachers need to be given greater means to tackle disruptive students.

6. Teachers who continually under-perform should either lose increments or in extreme cases be let go. Harsh maybe, but necessary to maintain a high standard of education.

Rant over

[alloverbartheshouting]

I'm a secondary school teacher, private sector (non-state funded).

I do work in mainstream secondary schools regularly and I have seen the good and the bad of both sides of the education system.

Due to the fact that I work in a completely private school, I only get paid for the hours I teach, not the preparation of notes, the correcting of exams and homework. I do not get paid for ANY holidays. Yet the result I get in my classes are excellent, I put this down to an environment that puts emphasis on achievement, study and a staff that are willing to put in many unpaid hours. Last year 1/3 of my students received an A2 or higher and 70% got a B3 of higher. This is because of the students hard work and willingness to engage with the subject material, I hasten to add.

I have seen teachers in the public sector, who are full-time and good salaries and pension schemes, complain about their students and repeatedly bad mouth them, using language that would shock the most liberal of people. I have seen staff do everything to avoid going into their classes, teachers with no IT skills, and those with very little knowledge of their subject requirements.... the list goes on. I must say that the private sector also has it's down side, often students who are academically weak, are ignored or neglected by teachers, I am not one of those.

Of course I would love to have a job in the public sector, and I am infuriated with some of what I have seen in the public sector. Where I currently work a member of staff will be let go if they are unable to teacher their subject. Yet I have seen public sector teachers rant and rave about the Croke Park agreement and how unfair it is. One teacher I recently heard said they should not bother putting in any effort into delivering on the Agreement because the government will have to withdraw from it sooner or later. What kind of attitude is that? At the end of the day the students come first, not the salaries or perks.

The point I am making is that teachers need to be made accountable for the outcome of their teaching.

In response to the original topic, I would make the following recommendations for secondary level.

1. Make teachers accountable for class performance, based on student ability.

2. Junior cycle should focus more on the basic mechanics of all subjects. E.g. Junior Cert English should focus more on grammar, syntax, spelling etc.

3. 1st to 4th Year should conjointly focus on educational and personal development. 5th and 6th Year should put more emphasis on subject knowledge and properly teacher students to analyse information rather than rote learning. Exams should be geared to wards student interpretation and creativity.

4. More project based IT work is essential in all subjects along with developing research skills.

5. Teachers need to be given greater means to tackle disruptive students.

6. Teachers who continually under-perform should either lose increments or in extreme cases be let go. Harsh maybe, but necessary to maintain a high standard of education.

Rant over

Just to ask - when you say that you work in a non-state funded school, does that mean that the school fees alone pay for teachers' wages? I thought that in all fee-paying schools in the State received funding from the state?

I agree with some of what you say - especially that good results are based on the student's willingness to work. Would you say that this is also due to the parents' high expectation (or return of investment, so to speak?) I ask this, as in terms of your first recommendation, I would have to dispute that student ability alone should be used as a marker of teacher accountability. The students' background must also be considered, as it is impracticable to expect students, regardless of ability alone, in say, Blackrock, to have the same educational outcomes as those in a more educationally disadvantaged area. Parents have a huge role to play in education, and you as a teacher obviously experience this daily.

However, to conclude, I will agree with you 100% that teachers are a spoiled lot. Not all take advantage of this, in that so many in all education sectors are true professionals who want the best for their students. However, every school has at least one member of staff who complains about teaching without any cognisance of the benefits they receive in terms of job security, holidays, pensions, etc. This can affect newly-qualified teachers who lok for guidance from more experienced colleagues. I LOVE my job (DEIS Band-1 primary school) and have worked my a*se off to do it well (as this is what I'm paid to do), and it really annoys me when a career I feel privileged to have is disrespected by some fellow teachers. I am not alone in this view, but trying to see some colleagues see sense can be draining, to say the least. However, I'll keep it up 'till the day I leave.

[stakerwallace]

I'm just back from a "tour of duty" in South America
In Quito, Ecuador one day I noticed that the kids were finishing around 1pm.
I asked a friend "why so early?"

He explained that because the population of Quito had expanded greatly recently...
Instead of building lots of new schools...
They had an early shift of schoolkids starting at 7am and a second bunch starting at 2pm.

Works perfectly for them!!!

I thought "if I suggested that at home they'd think I was mad"

I experienced that in Dublin in the early 70s when schools couldn't keep up with the building of estates: 9 to 1.and 2- 5.30. etc.

[stakerwallace]

I'm a secondary school teacher, private sector (non-state funded).

I do work in mainstream secondary schools regularly and I have seen the good and the bad of both sides of the education system.

Due to the fact that I work in a completely private school, I only get paid for the hours I teach, not the preparation of notes, the correcting of exams and homework. I do not get paid for ANY holidays. Yet the result I get in my classes are excellent, I put this down to an environment that puts emphasis on achievement, study and a staff that are willing to put in many unpaid hours. Last year 1/3 of my students received an A2 or higher and 70% got a B3 of higher. This is because of the students hard work and willingness to engage with the subject material, I hasten to add.

I have seen teachers in the public sector, who are full-time and good salaries and pension schemes, complain about their students and repeatedly bad mouth them, using language that would shock the most liberal of people. I have seen staff do everything to avoid going into their classes, teachers with no IT skills, and those with very little knowledge of their subject requirements.... the list goes on. I must say that the private sector also has it's down side, often students who are academically weak, are ignored or neglected by teachers, I am not one of those.

Of course I would love to have a job in the public sector, and I am infuriated with some of what I have seen in the public sector. Where I currently work a member of staff will be let go if they are unable to teacher their subject. Yet I have seen public sector teachers rant and rave about the Croke Park agreement and how unfair it is. One teacher I recently heard said they should not bother putting in any effort into delivering on the Agreement because the government will have to withdraw from it sooner or later. What kind of attitude is that? At the end of the day the students come first, not the salaries or perks.

The point I am making is that teachers need to be made accountable for the outcome of their teaching.

In response to the original topic, I would make the following recommendations for secondary level.

1. Make teachers accountable for class performance, based on student ability.

2. Junior cycle should focus more on the basic mechanics of all subjects. E.g. Junior Cert English should focus more on grammar, syntax, spelling etc.

3. 1st to 4th Year should conjointly focus on educational and personal development. 5th and 6th Year should put more emphasis on subject knowledge and properly teacher students to analyse information rather than rote learning. Exams should be geared to wards student interpretation and creativity.

4. More project based IT work is essential in all subjects along with developing research skills.

5. Teachers need to be given greater means to tackle disruptive students.

6. Teachers who continually under-perform should either lose increments or in extreme cases be let go. Harsh maybe, but necessary to maintain a high standard of education.

Rant over

It is quite likely that your salary, or if not yours, many of your colleagues is paid by the state: unless of course you work in one of the "grind schools".

[alloverbartheshouting]

I experienced that in Dublin in the early 70s when schools couldn't keep up with the building of estates: 9 to 1.and 2- 5.30. etc.

Really? I had no idea this happened.

Do you mind me asking, where (approximately) did this happen? Not a problem (development-wise) we're likely to experience anytime soon, but fascinating none the less.....

[mrsaturdayknight]

It is quite likely that your salary, or if not yours, many of your colleagues is paid by the state: unless of course you work in one of the "grind schools".

Yes it is a so called 'Grind School' that I work in. No bonuses, increments or holiday pay. I'm not bitter about that, it's a job and I work with some fantastic staff.

[mrsaturdayknight]

Just to ask - when you say that you work in a non-state funded school, does that mean that the school fees alone pay for teachers' wages? I thought that in all fee-paying schools in the State received funding from the state?

I agree with some of what you say - especially that good results are based on the student's willingness to work. Would you say that this is also due to the parents' high expectation (or return of investment, so to speak?) I ask this, as in terms of your first recommendation, I would have to dispute that student ability alone should be used as a marker of teacher accountability. The students' background must also be considered, as it is impracticable to expect students, regardless of ability alone, in say, Blackrock, to have the same educational outcomes as those in a more educationally disadvantaged area. Parents have a huge role to play in education, and you as a teacher obviously experience this daily.

However, to conclude, I will agree with you 100% that teachers are a spoiled lot. Not all take advantage of this, in that so many in all education sectors are true professionals who want the best for their students. However, every school has at least one member of staff who complains about teaching without any cognisance of the benefits they receive in terms of job security, holidays, pensions, etc. This can affect newly-qualified teachers who lok for guidance from more experienced colleagues. I LOVE my job (DEIS Band-1 primary school) and have worked my a*se off to do it well (as this is what I'm paid to do), and it really annoys me when a career I feel privileged to have is disrespected by some fellow teachers. I am not alone in this view, but trying to see some colleagues see sense can be draining, to say the least. However, I'll keep it up 'till the day I leave.

It's a so called grinds school that I work in, so student fees pay for all the costs of the school and staff wages. I agree with you totally that it is unfair to expect the same from students who are coming from very different backgrounds. I was perhaps over-simplifying my point. I worked in a DEIS school last year and I have done regular work in similar schools. In some cases the goal is to keep students in school as long as possible and it is a challenging, but very rewarding task.

Yes parent expectation is a big factor in student performance. So obviously a big problem to tackle is to regain a respect for the value of education.

Anyway, keep up the good work. Would love to work in a DEIS school, I loved my time workkng in one last year.

[RobertW]

Yes it is a so called 'Grind School' that I work in. No bonuses, increments or holiday pay. I'm not bitter about that, it's a job and I work with some fantastic staff.

Then if you work in a grind school then you know absolutely nothing about education and its requirements fpr educating the whole person.

You turn up to class and throw a bunch of notes at well motivated students.

Let's put you in an inner city school or a school where social problems right across the social spectrum exist and we'll see how good you think you are.

Incidentally you say you are sick of teachers moaning about the Croke Park Agreement and yet the CPA does not apply in grind schools?

[alloverbartheshouting]

Then if you work in a grind school then you know absolutely nothing about education and its requirements fpr educating the whole person.

You turn up to class and throw a bunch of notes at well motivated students.

Let's put you in an inner city school or a school where social problems right across the social spectrum exist and we'll see how good you think you are.

Incidentally you say you are sick of teachers moaning about the Croke Park Agreement and yet the CPA does not apply in grind schools?

To be fair, when I challenged him about student ability and educational outcomes for educationally disadvantaged students, MrSaturdayKnight said in a later post that he worked in a DEIS school last year and would like to do so again. Not sticking my oar in, but it wasn't that long ago that I was a newbie and drew fire by not comprehensively laying out my stall.

We'll have him thoroughly induced into the dark arts of p.ie before long...!