Awareness of known history in setting up new schools in some areas in Dublin

[Riadach]

Sarah Carey's silly column on gaelscoileanna

Tell me darren, will Irish be in a better or worse position in West Dublin, if these schools go ahead? Would your efforts not be better spent trying to ensure quotas in these Gaelscoileanna (or determining if in fact they are employing quotas) rather than opposing them completely with nonsense arguments about historical knowledge? You have an issue with Gaelscoil teachers who you feel don't do enough for the language, by which I assume you mean setting up blogs, posting stickers or campaigning for streetnames, that much is obvious. I'm assuming this is a result of a wounded pride, the fact that inidividually, these teachers,, even if they don't do a tap of work for the language outside working hours, are still doing more for the promotion and the preservation of the language than a thousand darren priors.

This is all I'm saying on the matter.

[Darren J. Prior]

Tell me darren, will Irish be in a better or worse position in West Dublin, if these schools go ahead? Would your efforts not be better spent trying to ensure quotas in these Gaelscoileanna (or determining if in fact they are employing quotas) rather than opposing them completely with nonsense arguments about historical knowledge? You have an issue with Gaelscoil teachers who you feel don't do enough for the language, by which I assume you mean setting up blogs, posting stickers or campaigning for streetnames, that much is obvious. I'm assuming this is a result of a wounded pride, the fact that inidividually, these teachers,, even if they don't do a tap of work for the language outside working hours, are still doing more for the promotion and the preservation of the language than a thousand darren priors.

This is all I'm saying on the matter.

You are the one who wanted to find out more broadly what exactly I think. I told you that I said what I think on the Language Education in Ireland thread but, no, you wanted more. I deleted my post quoted in that link on the Sarah Carey Gaelscoileanna thread soon after I wrote it in 2009 because I find talking about the undesirable aspects of the gaelscoileanna to be depressing and I hoped, and said so repeatedly, that I did not want to go down that avenue on this thread.

Considering the number of kids leaving gaelscoileanna with fluent Irish and who speak Irish regularly is generally unnoticeable I would suggest you think more about what I said on this Language Education in Ireland thread.

[Dr Pat]

Questioning the purity of motive of parents who want to send their children to Gaelscoileanna was done publicly by Sarah Carey.

All sorts of people will have all sorts of reasons why they send their kids to particular schools and often they will have mixed motives. However, I would have thought a generally favourable disposition of a significant proportion of the parents towards the Irish language and willing to send their kids to Irish language schools is a good starting point. If you feel that Gaelscoileanna are being widely abused by interlopers, then maybe consider and argue for introducing pre-screening but one would need to be very careful with that I would have thought.

Sarah Carey may have a couple of valid points but her obnoxious diatribe was complemented by her overweening ego and lack of empirical evidence and ignorant anti-Irish language agenda which was clearly evident in that podcast you posted a link to earlier.

Every movement will have problems and prejudices to overcome but that is the nature of any task with which humanity is faced. Clearly, you are passionate but I think you will have to accept that there are different levels of commitment to any cause and live with that. Carey may be right in a few things but her attitude is completely wrong and that will be the undoing of her and her ilk in the long run if you and people like you continue in what is, even with warts and all, still a very worthy and worthwhile project.

[cathalbrugha]

Can anyone who knows Tyrellstown well or fairly well enlighten us to how many immigrants there are proportionally in the area? Because the last time I was up there I was canvassing for a party and 70%+ of the residents there were immigrants who were not registered to vote. This is another reason not to set up a Gaelscoil in the area I believe, although the school could be reflective of the population, but perhaps we should leave debating this question in depth to another thread?

Nicola Byrne and Martin Bright, home affairs editor

The Observer, Sunday 15 September 2002
Article history

The familiy of Patrice Lumumba, the assassinated first Prime Minister of Congo, have demanded an apology from the Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny, who called the revered African liberation hero a '************************************' in a racist joke.
Disgust at Kenny's recent remarks spread last night to Britain, where he was condemned by race campaigners, including the powerful Commission for Racial Equality watchdog and British political parties.

In a remarkable twist, The Observer has discovered that members of Lumumba's family - including one of his six sons and seven of his grandchildren - are living in Tallaght in west Dublin, after fleeing political persecution in the former Zaire in 1997
Kongole Lumumba, son of the murdered leader, told The Observer of his hurt and embarrassment on learning of Kenny's remarks from his 15-year-old son, who was told of them at school last week.

He now wants the Fine Gael leader to explain his actions. 'Mr Kenny made a public apology, but he didn't apologise to me.' He added: 'It is very sad to hear of my father, who was a great man, being spoken about in this way. I would like to call that man [Kenny] and ask him exactly what he was talking about. I still can't believe that a man in his position would make such a remark. He has made a spectacle of himself.'

Anti-racist groups in Ireland and Britain are dismayed that Kenny has been able to keep his job after his comments about Lumumba, the first leader of an independent Congo, who was assassinated by opponents in 1961.

Fine Gael officials in Dublin have attempted to dismiss the issue as 'dead', but critics have been dismayed by the party's attitude and the lack of public debate about the issue. Prominent supporters, including Lord Henry Mountcharles, have also expressed their anger.

Campaigners in Britain said such words would result in instant dismissal. The Conservative Party leader, Iain Duncan Smith, sacked front-bench agriculture spokeswoman Ann Winterton earlier this year after she told a racist joke at a function.

A Tory spokesman said: 'It happened in the Tory party to a lesser degree and it's quite clear how we dealt with it. I don't understand why Fine Gael have not done the same. Politicians need to be careful about what they say.'

Kenny made the remarks at a private function in Dublin during a speech to party workers and journalists earlier this month. During an anecdote about a holiday in Portugal, he said a Moroccan barman 'with shiny teeth' had been asked why a cocktail was called a 'Lumumba' and replied it was named after 'some ************************************ who died dans la guerre'.

Kenny initially asked reporters at the function not to report his remarks and, to the astonishment of some commentators, a number of newspapers agreed. The Irish Sunday Independent, however, reported the story, and last week Kenny admitted he was wrong to have used the words and claimed his party was 'committed to diversity'.

In London, a spokesman for the Commission for Racial Equality said it was 'inconceivable' that a prominent politician in Britain would use such language and keep his or her job. 'Over the last two years there has been an enormous amount of concern about racist attacks in Ireland, and the government has enacted far-reaching legislation on equality and racial hatred. Clearly public opinion and the Fine Gael leader have some catching up to do.'

In a statement, Kenny told The Observer last night: 'The fact is that I used the word, and no context can excuse it. I failed to exemplify my own standards and those of my party. I apologise for any offence this may have caused, particularly to the Lumumba family.'

Lumumba's 15-year-old grandson, Joseph, said he first heard of the controversy when his teacher pulled him aside last Monday morning. 'I just couldn't believe it. You expect to hear that word on the streets, but you wouldn't expect it of someone of his stature.'

The London-based Refugee Council joined its Irish counterpart in condemning the remarks, saying they could damage race relations in a country where attacks on asylum seekers are on the increase: 'Politicians have a duty to set an example to the public. They must ensure that the tone and language they use when talking about sensitive issues enhances and fuels the debate,' a spokesman said.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++

Considering the remarks made by Lord Mayor Darren Scully recently about Blacks,perhaps Darren P. has a point.Perhaps Blacks/Immigrants shouldn't send their children to 'Gaelscoils'.It saddens me to say this,but somewhere along the line,
some sort of backwoodsman regressive neanderthal way of thinking entered into the Gaelic movement.In the space of ten years Fine Gael have gone from bad to worse.What started as a 'jóke',to be kept secret,has now become almost like water off a ducks back.I think it should be debated,and i for 1,commend you for highlighting the immigration issue.

[Darren J. Prior]

Considering the remarks made by Lord Mayor Darren Scully recently about Blacks,perhaps Darren P. has a point.Perhaps Blacks/Immigrants shouldn't send their children to 'Gaelscoils'.It saddens me to say this,but somewhere along the line,
some sort of backwoodsman regressive neanderthal way of thinking entered into the Gaelic movement.In the space of ten years Fine Gael have gone from bad to worse.What started as a 'jóke',to be kept secret,has now become almost like water off a ducks back.I think it should be debated,and i for 1,commend you for highlighting the immigration issue.

What you are extrapolating says something about you, and not me...

If the majority of the students in Gaelscoil an Chuilinn are children of immigrants then the school will be held up as a model of Gaelscoil multiculturalism. If the school was located in Tyrellstown this would in theory have to be the case because as I said from my knowledge the majority of people living there are immigrants, or were two years ago. I have since heard the school is not going to be located in Tyrellstown but between Tyrellstown and Hollystown. I can't place Hollystown in my mind. My fear was that Gaelscoil an Chuilinn would be located in Tyrellstown and that the majority of the students would be Irish which would stoke anti-Gaelscoil sentiment.

[Horseflesh]

I looked at the list of the primary and second-level Gaelscoileanna in Dublin today on the Gaelscoileanna Teo. website. There are nearly forty of them and they are continuing to grow in Dublin and nationally.

I was looking to see where they all are located and I found out that I think all of them in Dublin are located in areas with Gaelic history e.g. Tallaght (Tamhlacht), Clonsilla (Cluain Saileach), Cabra (Cabrach) etc.

I am starting this thread because a new Gaelscoil is planned to open in Tyrellstown in West Dublin in September and there is also a campaign for a new Gaelscoil in Carpenterstown in the same region.

I would like to see the Gaelscoileanna grow in Ireland but be overhauled.

However I don't think that Gaelscoileanna being Gaelic schools should be built in areas where there is no recorded Gaelic history.

There is no evidence of any Gaelic families living in the areas now known as Tyrellstown and Carpenterstown prior to to the Normans or their close descendents invading this part of North-West Dublin and taking the land as their own.

I wouldn't have a problem on this score with the Gaelscoil planned for Tyrellstown being built which I wanted since I heard about the campaign two or three years ago in some part of (real) Mulhuddart (Mullach Eadrad) and the Gaelscoil proposed for Carpenterstown being built in some other part of (real) Castleknock (Caisleán Cnucha)....

What do YOU think?

Can anyone who knows Tyrellstown well or fairly well enlighten us to how many immigrants there are proportionally in the area? Because the last time I was up there I was canvassing for a party and 70%+ of the residents there were immigrants who were not registered to vote. This is another reason not to set up a Gaelscoil in the area I believe, although the school could be reflective of the population, but perhaps we should leave debating this question in depth to another thread?

So you want to make official the thinly-veiled apartheid policies used by Gaelscoils?
It all comes out in the wash, and at least you're being honest I suppose.

[cathalbrugha]

What you are extrapolating says something about you, and not me...

If the majority of the students in Gaelscoil an Chuilinn are children of immigrants then the school will be held up as a model of Gaelscoil multiculturalism. If the school was located in Tyrellstown this would in theory have to be the case because as I said from my knowledge the majority of people living there are immigrants, or were two years ago. I have since heard the school is not going to be located in Tyrellstown but between Tyrellstown and Hollystown. I can't place Hollystown in my mind. My fear was that Gaelscoil an Chuilinn would be located in Tyrellstown and that the majority of the students would be Irish which would stoke anti-Gaelscoil sentiment.

Then what the feck is this about in your OP-

'I would like to see the Gaelscoileanna grow in Ireland but be overhauled.However I don't think that Gaelscoileanna being Gaelic schools should be built in areas where there is no recorded Gaelic history.'

And then you go on to say that-

'Because the last time I was up there I was canvassing for a party and 70%+ of the residents there were immigrants who were not registered to vote. This is another reason not to set up a Gaelscoil in the area I believe'.

Spare me a lecture on multiculturalism-My bunscoil had 15% blacks,in the 70s.It wasn't an issue then.....

One reason there is perhaps no recorded history from prehistoric times was because all,or most Gaelic history was of course an oral history-'Til the monks came....

A Filé for example would have to memorise as many as 250 main tales-Which were classified as follows.....

Togla-Destuctions
Tána-Cattle raids
Tochmarca-Wooings
Catha-Battles
Uatha-Caves
Immrama-Voyages
Aitte-Deaths
Fessa-Feasts
Forbasa-Sieges
Echtrai-Adventure Journies
Aitheda-Elopements
Airgne-Slaughters
Tormadmann-Eruptions
Slúagaid-Expeditions
Tochomlada-Immigrations
Físi-Visions
Serca-Love tales
(Ancient Ireland).

[Joeyjoejoe]

I don't know those areas.

Anyway, I have just read that Gaelscoil an Chuilinn will probably be located between Tyrellstown and Hollystown.

Riadach,

I thought the English anglicized nearly all of our original Irish language placenames. Are you saying more often then not today's Irish language placenames of towns are more often then not gaelicizations of the English name? So the English name is more often then not the first name- we have recorded anyway? So Baile etc. was called Baile etc. by Irish speakers when the town was built by the Normans after the Normans called it Bally etc.? I suppose Ráth etc. is where the placenames called Rath etc. comes from?

Baile Ghraí (Bellgree) and Ráth Mór (Rathmore) are in Tyrellstown. Kilnamonagh (Cill na Manach?) and Kilmartin (Cill Mhairtín?) are in Hollystown.

You may not realise this but they are all of Gaelic origin. Your claim that there is no Gaelic heritage in the region is a total and utter nonsense.

[Joeyjoejoe]

So you want to make official the thinly-veiled apartheid policies used by Gaelscoils?
It all comes out in the wash, and at least you're being honest I suppose.

No he thinks that if foreign parents choose not to send their children to a local Gaelscoil anti-Irish bigots will use that as 'evidence' that the Gaelscoil is preventing them from enrolling their children.

For some reason he didn't want to say this so he made a ludicrous claim that Irish was never spoken in the area and said there should be no Gaelscoil because of this, and started a thread on it.

His solution - punish people who want their children to learn Irish because others don't want to.

My solution - quotas for children from immigrant backrounds, pr to explain their English won't be affected and face down the anti-Irish extremists.

[Darren J. Prior]

No he thinks that if foreign parents choose not to send their children to a local Gaelscoil anti-Irish bigots will use that as 'evidence' that the Gaelscoil is preventing them from enrolling their children.

For some reason he didn't want to say this so he made a ludicrous claim that Irish was never spoken in the area and said there should be no Gaelscoil because of this, and started a thread on it.

I still think what I said. There is no recorded history in the towns of gaelic history because the towns were established by the close descendents of the Normans. If there is a significant number of Irish speakers living in the areas now, like anywhere else including of course Carpenterstown, we can say that the towns have cultúr gaelach but the cultúr gaelach in Carpenterstown and Tyrellstown is unnoticeable outside of the current schools. I along with a lot of people in Carpenterstown don't want a gaelscoil in the area but if there were a significant number of Irish speakers in the area that would be a different matter... I think. Currently there is no stair or cultúr gaelach in Carpenterstown bar a handful of teachers and a couple of resident Irish speakers (cultúr gaelach), that I know of.

Baile Ghraí (Bellgree) and Ráth Mór (Rathmore) are in Tyrellstown. Kilnamonagh (Cill na Manach?) and Kilmartin (Cill Mhairtín?) are in Hollystown.

You may not realise this but they are all of Gaelic origin. Your claim that there is no Gaelic heritage in the region is a total and utter nonsense.

Interesting but they are townlands of those towns yes (although they were there before the towns I know)?

My solution - quotas for children from immigrant backrounds, pr to explain their English won't be affected and face down the anti-Irish extremists.

I agree. The students for junior infants in Gaelscoil an Chuilinn are probably enrolled by now so I hope that this happens. For the sake of the Gaelscoileanna movement I hope so!