Language Education in Ireland

[Brenny]

I’m not sure if immersion is always the way to go. I taught English to a German man a few years ago. He was over in Ireland just to improve his English and he worked in a sh1tty old job with all Limerick people. He made comments about the second language education system in German schools which are fairly analogous to those expressed in the OP, namely that despite all he had learnt of grammar and English in general he was unable to talk fluidly to his Limerick work colleagues. I met his Limerick work colleagues in a pub with him one night and I told him, ‘Olaf, I don’t think you should start speaking like those lads.’

He was insistent, however, and for a short time we abandoned phrasal verbs and the conditional tense and spent a few nights watching Trainspotting, Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels and The Snapper with him sitting beside me with a notebook constantly asking me, ‘What are they saying now?’ He had his First Certificate to prepare for, however, and I felt that he was going backwards concentrating on silly colloquialisms so we went back to the standard stuff and he passed the First Certificate.

He was still frustrated as he still couldn’t tell a joke well and he still found it difficult to understand the girls who served him chips in Limerick but he had a good grasp of standard English that would stand him in good stead around the Anglophone world. In many ways his English was superior to a natives and I noticed this when we were out drinking with a Spanish and Chinese girl. After a pint or two I tired of spouting in Received Pronunciation and the Limerick in me came out and everyone found me more difficult to understand. The rest of them were very easily able to converse in Globish.

The vernacular is always very attractive (Olaf got a huge kick out of learning to say Fanf*ckingtastic) but it’s best to master the boring classroom version of a language first.

[Dylan2010]

if you look up six posts you will see a link to the singapore education system . They have shown without a doubt that it is billingualism that helps children do better in maths sience and language and not parents or teachers as the whole country overall has shown a improvement when they rolled out bilingualism to all children as mandatory.

To argue that one factor explains 100% of the improvement and other factors do not matter is silly. Looking at Singapore its economic situation has changed completely since the 1950's , so a kid coming through the system now will do better now then back then regardless of the bilingual policy.
It is a factor I'm sure but education is a complex interaction of variables and learning a second language is 1 of them, but only one.

[cytex]

To argue that one factor explains 100% of the improvement and other factors do not matter is silly. Looking at Singapore its economic situation has changed completely since the 1950's , so a kid coming through the system now will do better now then back then regardless of the bilingual policy.
It is a factor I'm sure but education is a complex interaction of variables and learning a second language is 1 of them, but only one.

Then explain the other factors that show this in canada ,singapore, wales , Ireland , holland in fact every billingual child.
Singapore for example has not just increased since the 50s it shows a increase (with the odd dip) from the 80s till today and it is now just starting to platue off . Again i showed that country in particular to address your notion that it can all be explained in Gaelscoils by the parents giving more of a damn.

Again this effect of bilingualism has been documented in multiple reports . It shows this is the case without a doubt.

links incoming
New report highlights the benefits of bilingualism for mathematics students in Ireland | UL University of Limerick
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/sc...versation.html
Society for Neuroscience - The Bilingual Brain


If you need more just ask .

[Nemesiscorporation]

The parents isssue has been addressed tho parents that take a active interest in there childs education of course are going to do better.

if you look up six posts you will see a link to the singapore education system . They have shown without a doubt that it is billingualism that helps children do better in maths sience and language and not parents or teachers as the whole country overall has shown a improvement when they rolled out bilingualism to all children as mandatory.

That would explain why the government is cutting back on language training as language training would make sense and assist kids in future careers.

Singapore schools are very different beats to Irish schools. There is no comparison in any way.

Everything in Singapore has changed.

Parents are very motivated and dismissing that is pointless.

The teaching hours are longer. There are significantly more after school activities.

Concentrating on one issue is not only pointless, it is just plain wrong. It is a multiple of factors in conjunction with each other.

[DuineEile]

Doesn't always work that way with the Irish education system.
My wife did German in college. During that time she took a break and went and lived in a small German town for a year. Going back to college in Ireland she was failed on her final oral German exam.
Bear in mind she had lived and worked in Germany for at least a year. She had to do some sort of appeal to get it.
Turns out it was because she had the German equivalent of a culchie accent.

Sounds funny etc., but it betrays a truth. Languages, including Irish, are taught incredibly badly in this country. I am sick of hearing people say they learnt Irish for 14 years and can't speak the language. Most of the same people learnt French for six years and also can't speak that language. In fact they could learn it for the next sixty years and still not be able to speak it.

Learning one language properly is no impediment to learning another language. In fact it is a help.


D

[cytex]

That would explain why the government is cutting back on language training as language training would make sense and assist kids in future careers.

Singapore schools are very different beats to Irish schools. There is no comparison in any way.

I never said there was a comparison or that they weren't different but highlighting the fact that this common stick to beat Gaelscoils with that the only reason they do better is because the parents give a damn is a falacey. This improvment in maths science and languages is shown in all Billingual schools even when it is enforced so the parents given a damn is ruled out and also the better calibre of student is rulled out as well.

Govement cutting back is to save a buck nothing more.

[endajo]

I’m not sure if immersion is always the way to go. I taught English to a German man a few years ago. He was over in Ireland just to improve his English and he worked in a sh1tty old job with all Limerick people. He made comments about the second language education system in German schools which are fairly analogous to those expressed in the OP, namely that despite all he had learnt of grammar and English in general he was unable to talk fluidly to his Limerick work colleagues. I met his Limerick work colleagues in a pub with him one night and I told him, ‘Olaf, I don’t think you should start speaking like those lads.’

He was insistent, however, and for a short time we abandoned phrasal verbs and the conditional tense and spent a few nights watching Trainspotting, Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels and The Snapper with him sitting beside me with a notebook constantly asking me, ‘What are they saying now?’ He had his First Certificate to prepare for, however, and I felt that he was going backwards concentrating on silly colloquialisms so we went back to the standard stuff and he passed the First Certificate.

He was still frustrated as he still couldn’t tell a joke well and he still found it difficult to understand the girls who served him chips in Limerick but he had a good grasp of standard English that would stand him in good stead around the Anglophone world. In many ways his English was superior to a natives and I noticed this when we were out drinking with a Spanish and Chinese girl. After a pint or two I tired of spouting in Received Pronunciation and the Limerick in me came out and everyone found me more difficult to understand. The rest of them were very easily able to converse in Globish.

The vernacular is always very attractive (Olaf got a huge kick out of learning to say Fanf*ckingtastic) but it’s best to master the boring classroom version of a language first.

FFS. You start out questioning immersion, based on the experience of your friend immersing himself in a pack of Limerick bowsies. I presume you realise that this is not what immersion education in Gaelscoileanna is about?

You finish off recommending formal mastery in a school setting - I hope the múinteoirí in the Gaelscoileanna take your advice and stop drinking poitín in class and organising faction fights and cattle raids on neighbouring parishes.

[Dylan2010]

Again this effect of bilingualism has been documented in multiple reports . It shows this is the case without a doubt.

I'm not disputing that it helps but in the Irish context what are you suggesting? that the state spend say 10bn over the few years trying (and probably failing)to turn Ireland into a bilingual state in an effort to improve Reading and Maths ability. Why not just up the standard of Math Education and increase the time spent doing English?
As I've said you wont get any argument from me, more kids should be learning languages early on, its a no brainer.

[Why not]

Teaching children in a bi-lingual setting certainly does no harm even if it does no good, so my question is why not? Educational standards in Ireland have slipped in recent years so why not try a new approach and see what happens? Young children are extremely open to learning more than one language, why not give them the opportunity to do so? What's the worst that can happen?

[Toland]

I think international school exchanges for teenagers are the way to go. To learn a language you have to sleep with it (or so it is said).

: o )