Michael Woods gifted us an oppurtunity to secularize the schools

[Toland]

According to a recent announcement, a nearby parish is putting over 100,000 towards the cost of a school.

Do you know whether this money came from the collection plate? Or did it ultimately come from some public funding in one way or another?

Anyway, €100,000 is a relatively small amount of money. Though it will not seem so to people trying to raise it. And even more so if you do not have the infrastructure that the average parish.

But schools of all sorts come with parents who generate a community of interests and they regularly have to raise such amounts. As I say, it's fairly small beer in relation to what a school costs to set up and run.

Educate Together schools can raise such sums fairly routinely, in the same way as any other sorts of school.

I think this is the sort of thing that produced fat and thin parishes in education. For this reason, alone I think such funds should come directly from the exchequer.

It may cost money, but, as I say, not very much in the order of things.

The capital cost of buying schools from the church that they should never have owned in the first place will, however, be more expensive. Though not as expensive as some seem to think.

As I say, a school zoned exclusive for education purposes that the State refuses to fund under its current management model may be surprisingly cheap to any group wishing to introduce a management model closer to what the State wishes to incentivise.

[Half Nelson]

Do you know whether this money came from the collection plate? Or did it ultimately come from some public funding in one way or another?

Anyway, €100,000 is a relatively small amount of money. Though it will not seem so to people trying to raise it. And even more so if you do not have the infrastructure that the average parish.

But schools of all sorts come with parents who generate a community of interests and they regularly have to raise such amounts. As I say, it's fairly small beer in relation to what a school costs to set up and run.

Educate Together schools can raise such sums fairly routinely, in the same way as any other sorts of school.

I think this is the sort of thing that produced fat and thin parishes in education. For this reason, alone I think such funds should come directly from the exchequer.

It may cost money, but, as I say, not very much in the order of things.

The capital cost of buying schools from the church that they should never have owned in the first place will, however, be more expensive. Though not as expensive as some seem to think.

As I say, a school zoned exclusive for education purposes that the State refuses to fund under its current management model may be surprisingly cheap to any group wishing to introduce a management model closer to what the State wishes to incentivise.

This is what people should be wary of. The devil is in the detail.
I can see a day arriving when the state takes over the schools, the celebrations are over and everybody says - "now what?" - a bit like invading Iraq.
It's not the Churches which are in danger of buying a pig in a poke - they will only gain from a divestiture of schools - it's the taxpayers.

[Toland]

It's the taxpayers.

You can say that again. According to our constitution, to divest them of our schools, we'll need to pay them.

As I say, not as handsomely as some fear, but pay we will.

The comparison with the disaster that was the invasion with Iraq is ridiculous. Most of the schools are already catholic lite. Remove a few crucifixes (and ugly statues on facades), change a few text books and fanny's your aunt.

Then, of course, you can only really get started on changing curricula once the State has retaken control, not only of the schools, but also of the Department of Education from the Church.

[Half Nelson]

You can say that again. According to our constitution, to divest them of our schools, we'll need to pay them.

As I say, not as handsomely as some fear, but pay we will.

The comparison with the disaster that was the invasion with Iraq is ridiculous. Most of the schools are already catholic lite. Remove a few crucifixes (and ugly statues on facades), change a few text books and fanny's your aunt.

Then, of course, you can only really get started on changing curricula once the State has retaken control, not only of the schools, but also of the Department of Education from the Church.

And hey, presto! we see what it's all about.
Any chance we'll get to see the proposed changes before the state takes control or will it be a surprise?

[Toland]

And hey, presto! we see what it's all about.
Any chance we'll get to see the proposed changes before the state takes control or will it be a surprise?

I think you'll find you'll be consulted. But you'll be sad to hear that people like me will be too.

[Still Sceptical]

p.s i probably have less faith in religion than you but at least i can tell the difference between people abusing their position in an organisation and a religious belief held by many people living in this country

I meant the comment in the context of the Catholic church controlling most schools in Ireland.

And its not clear you can tell the difference.

The abuse and coverup was not conducted by a few sick priests, in isolation from the institution of the church. The institution of the Catholic Church itself has been centrally involved in abuse; many countries across the world have been involved, this is not just an Irish problem, and the problem goes right up to the highest position (the pope) in the church.

The institution of the church has refused to co-operate with the law, and with victims in a meaningful way.

And the "religious belief held by many people living in this country" is a direct result of that institution having a near monoploy on education. Religious belief is taught as fact, and the indoctrination is predatory; preying on young minds and maintaining power through fear.

ps - you probably do not have less faith in religion... unless we're talking about faith in the ability of organisated and institutionalised religion to control the masses, restricting freedom of thought and action and directing belief, in the most horrific of ways.

[Half Nelson]

I think you'll find you'll be consulted. But you'll be sad to hear that people like me will be too.

They're going to Berlin?
Now that's consultation!

[Toland]

They're going to Berlin?
Now that's consultation!

Since you seem to be consulting me now, I don't think geography will be much of a barrier.

[charley]

I meant the comment in the context of the Catholic church controlling most schools in Ireland.

And its not clear you can tell the difference.

The abuse and coverup was not conducted by a few sick priests, in isolation from the institution of the church. The institution of the Catholic Church itself has been centrally involved in abuse; many countries across the world have been involved, this is not just an Irish problem, and the problem goes right up to the highest position (the pope) in the church.

The institution of the church has refused to co-operate with the law, and with victims in a meaningful way.

And the "religious belief held by many people living in this country" is a direct result of that institution having a near monoploy on education. Religious belief is taught as fact, and the indoctrination is predatory; preying on young minds and maintaining power through fear.

ps - you probably do not have less faith in religion... unless we're talking about faith in the ability of organisated and institutionalised religion to control the masses, restricting freedom of thought and action and directing belief, in the most horrific of ways.

get real ,the church's patronage of schools is in a very minor role,their input into the running of schools is minimal,the reason they have a near monopoly on education is because the state was unable and unwilling to provide it back years ago,and have been quite happy to let someone else do it for them still, the fact that a large number of unsuitable men were admitted into the priesthood is a scandal and the crimes they committed monstrous, religion is a very small part of the curriculum and unless things have changed a lot since i was in primary school (1970s)nobody cared if you learned it or not,nobody was ever refused communion or confirmation because they didn't know their prayers,coronation street and dora the explorer have more influence on the masses than the church, the catholic church's influence is minimal they have joined that club of sacred hasbeens that include gardai,bankers,solicitors and politicians that people keep at arms length and only speak to when they have to.

[Still Sceptical]

get real ,the church's patronage of schools is in a very minor role,their input into the running of schools is minimal,the reason they have a near monopoly on education is because the state was unable and unwilling to provide it back years ago,and have been quite happy to let someone else do it for them still, the fact that a large number of unsuitable men were admitted into the priesthood is a scandal and the crimes they committed monstrous, religion is a very small part of the curriculum and unless things have changed a lot since i was in primary school (1970s)nobody cared if you learned it or not,nobody was ever refused communion or confirmation because they didn't know their prayers,coronation street and dora the explorer have more influence on the masses than the church, the catholic church's influence is minimal they have joined that club of sacred hasbeens that include gardai,bankers,solicitors and politicians that people keep at arms length and only speak to when they have to.

The church demanded a central role in education because they understood the power and influence that afforded them. It gave them a powerful grasp over the Irish psyche. Please don't present it as fact that the church merely stepped in, due to the inadequacies of the state. The church very much wanted that role.

Its obvious the chuch has lost considerable influence over the years. However, in education for example, their role is greater than you give credit to. Catholic culture, ethos and practice are still very much part of the Irish schooling experience. Propaganda is much more obvious to the non-believer than those already believing. For example, you will not notice the reinforcement of beliefs as propaganda. I went to school in the 1990s. The church was very much still part of the education experience, even though it was done in a less in-your-face manner.