Investigation into leaving cert and university results.

[Thac0man]

This is a worrying developemnet:

RTÉ News: Allegations of Irish exam 'grade inflation'

The claim is one of "grade inflation" with leaving cert streight 'A's up 500% and university first class honours trebled.

Two things stand out. Firstly practice of grade inflation itself. What has sparked this trend? For such a dramatic rise in results uniform policy at university and secondry school level is required. Unless the rise can be explained away by some implimention of an easier curriculum there seems to be a conspiracy of sorts at work. Behind that can only be the board of universitys and teachers Unions. No other groups could be responsible and ultimitly as handsome renumeration for education is on offer it suggests basic farud.

One of the most worrying aspects of this though is it took a company like Intel to highlight and question of the quality of Irish graduates. Our education system has been the bedrock of our economy for year, now that seems to have been badly undermined. The result in the worst case scenario, is that we have tens of thousands of badly qualified graduates not fit for purpose and hundreds of thousands entering into university to undertake degree courses which they would not be capable of completeing in another country with stricter examination criteria.

This has to be resoved and rectified, but the damage to ireland at this time and for the next few years is going to be huge and felt in every sector of the Irish economy.

[birthday]

This is a worrying developemnet:

RTÉ News: Allegations of Irish exam 'grade inflation'

The claim is one of "grade inflation" with leaving cert streight 'A's up 500% and university first class honours trebled.

Two things stand out. Firstly practice of grade inflation itself. What has sparked this trend? For such a dramatic rise in results uniform policy at university and secondry school level is required. Unless the rise can be explained away by some implimention of an easier curriculum there seems to be a conspiracy of sorts at work. Behind that can only be the board of universitys and teachers Unions. No other groups could be responsible and ultimitly as handsome renumeration for education is on offer it suggests basic farud.

One of the most worrying aspects of this though is it took a company like Intel to highlight and question of the quality of Irish graduates. Our education system has been the bedrock of our economy for year, now that seems to have been badly undermined. The result in the worst case scenario, is that we have tens of thousands of badly qualified graduates not fit for purpose and hundreds of thousands entering into university to undertake degree courses which they would not be capable of completeing in another country with stricter examination criteria.

This has to be resoved and rectified, but the damage to ireland at this time and for the next few years is going to be huge and felt in every sector of the Irish economy.

Already discussed on another thread. Interesting discussion above.
Asking DES to investigate is hardly appropriate. Is it not more reasonable to think that it is they who would be investigated?
A whitewash in other words?
I recall an IT lecturer in an institution on East side of country raising the issue of grade inflation. He was nearly lynched by the students union and was laughed at by his union (TUI).
There were even rumours of sexual favours being expected for good grades in one well know Dublin university!!!

[stringjack]

Two things stand out. Firstly practice of grade inflation itself. What has sparked this trend? For such a dramatic rise in results uniform policy at university and secondry school level is required. Unless the rise can be explained away by some implimention of an easier curriculum there seems to be a conspiracy of sorts at work. Behind that can only be the board of universitys and teachers Unions. No other groups could be responsible and ultimitly as handsome renumeration for education is on offer it suggests basic farud.

(i) Curriculum and marking for the Leaving Certificate are centralised, aren't they? If so, any grade inflation presumably has to be the result of DoE policy. In any case, insofar as the primary use of the exam is entrance to third level, grade inflation is less of an issue (unless it rises to the extent of that in the UK, where one cannot adequately distinguish between candidates with A grades; and obviously, to the extent that the Leaving Certificate is being used as a terminal qualification, the problem is more serious).

(ii) We need more fine grained data for the third level sector. In particular, we need to know if increases are uniform across traditional universities and the new ITs, for example (which started awarding degrees in the last 15 years), and if the increases are independent of the proportion of students taking various subjects (if it's always been the case that a greater proportion of high grades is awarded in, say, business, and if proportionately more students have been enrolling in business courses, then that would lead to apparent grade inflation without any change in the underlying factors).

(iii) Blaming teachers' unions is quite odd; not only do the unions lack the power to do very much about grades, they also lack a clear interest in inflating grades. Moreover, using terms such as 'conspiracy' and 'fraud' appears somewhat hysterical.

[Sync]

I think it was the head of DCU who was on Mornnig Ireland this morning, and he made a series of very good points that it's the syllabus at LC which is more than likely the problem. Very little "learning" is required to get fantasticly high marks, the tests are more reliant on rote memorisation, leaving the students unable to think critically by the time they hit college.

It's reasonable to assume that as this becomes more transparent, and teachers get better at knowing how to train the kids to do well in the exams (as opposed to actually teaching them about business studies for instance), that the grades would show steady improvement.

[LDF]

I did the LC in '95. I failed Geography which meant I didn't get enough points to get into University College Galway - my first choice. Anyway, worked out for the best. I didn't really want to live in Munster.

[Sync]

I did the LC in '95. I failed Geography which meant I didn't get enough points to get into University College Galway - my first choice. Anyway, worked out for the best. I didn't really want to live in Munster.

[ellie08]

Went back and did Irish hons L.C. 4 years ago - got a B3 and I am hopeless at Irish - I didn't even think I would pass it. Can't say I'm too upset if that result was inflated tho. (or else the standard must be pretty low)

[KingKane]

I think it was the head of DCU who was on Mornnig Ireland this morning, and he made a series of very good points that it's the syllabus at LC which is more than likely the problem. Very little "learning" is required to get fantasticly high marks, the tests are more reliant on rote memorisation, leaving the students unable to think critically by the time they hit college.

It's reasonable to assume that as this becomes more transparent, and teachers get better at knowing how to train the kids to do well in the exams (as opposed to actually teaching them about business studies for instance), that the grades would show steady improvement.

The problem is that there is much more teaching to the exams as the exams have become a gateway to 3rd level rather than an end in themselves and also the much wider availablity of past exam papers and validated solutions to those questions which means it is easier to practice for the exams. Also there is a 3 year cycle for the LC now even with transition year, and that helps with the results too.

Now in some senses it means the students might only know what is on the exam but it also means that they actually learn what is on the exam!

I would be more concerned at changes if they are happening at 3rd level.

[Breadan O'Connor]

This is a worrying developemnet:

RTÉ News: Allegations of Irish exam 'grade inflation'

The claim is one of "grade inflation" with leaving cert streight 'A's up 500% and university first class honours trebled.

Two things stand out. Firstly practice of grade inflation itself. What has sparked this trend? For such a dramatic rise in results uniform policy at university and secondry school level is required. Unless the rise can be explained away by some implimention of an easier curriculum there seems to be a conspiracy of sorts at work. Behind that can only be the board of universitys and teachers Unions. No other groups could be responsible and ultimitly as handsome renumeration for education is on offer it suggests basic farud.

One of the most worrying aspects of this though is it took a company like Intel to highlight and question of the quality of Irish graduates. Our education system has been the bedrock of our economy for year, now that seems to have been badly undermined. The result in the worst case scenario, is that we have tens of thousands of badly qualified graduates not fit for purpose and hundreds of thousands entering into university to undertake degree courses which they would not be capable of completeing in another country with stricter examination criteria.

This has to be resoved and rectified, but the damage to ireland at this time and for the next few years is going to be huge and felt in every sector of the Irish economy.

This is just another example of the endless Irish capacity for self delusion!

In august every year the papers are full of guff about students getting extraordinary results and the implication is the intelligence levels of students are increasing hugely.

As usual it takes foreigners to point out the obvious-- that the exams are being devalued by easy marking.

I would guess it applies both at second and third level

[rockofcashel]

Well, I have to admit, I am not surprised with this conclusion.

Whilst I hate to sound like Bill Cullen "In my day.....", I picked up a book of recent past papers for the leaving cert in Easons sometime last year. It was the History past papers. And, to be honest, looking at the Ordinary Level History, I have a 9 year old who'd have made a reasonable stab at passing the paper. It was so simplistic that I couldn't call it an examination of any real kind. Feck sake, the whole first question was a cartoon and answering questions about the cartoon. If you could read you would get the answer.