Investigation into leaving cert and university results.

[Thac0man]

Definitely think people entering the workplace lack the quality of years gone by. they appear unable to think for themselves and have to be sonstantly spoonfed even after being in the job a while, results of Celtic Tiger?

I would tend to think the lazy attitude and false economy of the latter years of the Celtic Tiger is responsbile. My own area, IT, which is immediatly relevent to the breaking of this story, has seen a sharp decline in standards. I and collegues have noticed a comparison in the ability of a non-graduate 20 years ago, who dropped out in 2nd or 3rd year from an IT degree and a fully qualified graduate in the same field currently. There should be no comparison, yet in terms of ability it exists.

This isssue has already been thrashed about a bit, with claims entry to courses should be based on aptitude. But this was in relation to drop out rates. However in light of the scale of this problem and its enduring duration, such talk may have been a simple way of trying to address this issue of lower quality degrees without having to actually acknowledge it. Again the only beneficiaries are the social partners, government chief amongst them. As it stands now, the ones paying the saleries are calling the shots. It is a matter of some great concern that it has taken the employers to highlight this.

We cannot live in denail any more. Neither can we avoid the uncomfortable conslusion that any meaningful fix is going to take time and in the interim we are going to suffer.

At a stroke the justification of our high cost base has been demolished. All we are left with is the fig leaf of our attractive corporate tax rate. Small comfort.

As an illustration of what I have said above, most people I know in IT positions are not degree qualified, but have Microsoft certification. The industry has for years not placed much faith in the quality of degree graduates and instead sought to meet its skills demands in other related areas. Both the IT industry and employees have been paying good money to make up for the deficit in IT skills in Ireland. The question is, where on earth are all the IT grads we have been churning out? This is another aread where the truth has been side stepped. There should be more than enough graduates to fill positions. Yet companies are having to advertise abroad or train in house, and that has been the case for years.

[macdarawhitfield]

I did the LC in '95. I failed Geography which meant I didn't get enough points to get into University College Galway - my first choice. Anyway, worked out for the best. I didn't really want to live in Munster.

Ouch!

[LDF]

I would tend to think the lazy attitude and false economy of the latter years of the Celtic Tiger is responsbile. My own area, IT, which is immediatly relevent to the breaking of this story, has seen a sharp decline in standards. I and collegues have noticed a comparison in the ability of a non-graduate 20 years ago, who dropped out in 2nd or 3rd year from an IT degree and a fully qualified graduate in the same field currently. There should be no comparison.

This isssue has already been thrashed about a bit, with claims entry to courses should be based on aptitude. But this was in relation to drop out rates. However in light of the scale of this problem and its enduring duration, such talk may have been a simple way of trying to address this issue of lower quality degrees without having to actually acknowledge it. Again the only beneficiaries are the social partners, government chief amongst them. As it stands now, the ones pay the saleries are calling the shots. It a matter of some great concern that it has taken the employers to highlight this.

We cannot live in denail any more. Neither can we avoid the uncomfortable conslusion that any meaningful fix is going to take time and in the interim we are going to suffer.

At a stroke the justification of our high cost base has been demolished. All we are left with is the fig leaf of our attractive corporate tax rate. Small comfort.

As an illustration of what I have said above, most people I know in IT positions are not degree qualified, but have Microsoft certification. The industry has for years not placed much faith in the quality of degree graduates and instead sought to meet its skills demands in other related areas. Both the IT industry and employees have been paying good money to make up for the deficit in IT skills in Ireland. The question is, where on earth are all the IT grads we have been churning out?

Pretty much agree with everything you say. However, we are being led by a government which still believes the fact we are an english speaking country is a competitive advantage. It stopped being an advantage 20 years ago.

[Conor]

As the representitive organisation of the teaching body, a body that has seen overseen a FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT rise in strieght 'A's, how is it odd to identify them as posibly being to blame?

Teachers don't set marking standards, nor do their unions.

You don't do economics for the JC... you do Business Organisation... D'uh

Ha, they renamed it Business Studies a few years back because in this age of acronyms Business Organisation...well you can see where this is going.

It was always Business Studies for the JC (or Commerce for the Inter Cert). Business Organisation was a LC subject, now renamed just Business apparently.

[macdarawhitfield]

My kids would be ashamed of the crap spelling on this thread.

RTE's newsreader spoke this morning about 'the dumbing down of exam results'.Completely illiterate,ungrammatical and meaninglessresumably she meant the 'smarting up' of same - if there is such a verb.

As some Holllywood actor said, in response to complaints about his butchering of Shakespeare ' I didn't write this crap!'.Neither did the newsreader of course,but we are in no position to lecture the young people.

[macdarawhitfield]

Read it again.

I know! Nice one.

[Thac0man]

Teachers don't set marking standards, nor do their unions.

I did not claim they did. They just oversaw/oversee a system which it is now apparent is failing. Is the role of teachers to simply relate dept. of education material without comment, criticism or input? Because those things seem to have been entirely absent in the last few years.

This bares the hallmarks of a systemic failure, of which teachers are a part of. Please, by all means defend teachers generous pay and tell me what it is they deliver that is worth so much renumeration and generous terms? Because right now the claims in defence of said renumeration are proving to be bullsh*t, to put it mildly. Teachers are not solely responsbile, but neither can they claim to be exempt from all responsiblity. If they want to claim its 'more than their jobs worth', then fine. But thats not a attitude I or the nation as a whole expect to pay well for.

[Thac0man]

but we are in no position to lecture the young people.

Neither it seems on current evidance are those who are paid to do so.

[NeilW]

This bares the hallmarks of a systemic failure, of which teachers are a part of.

And if the proportion of students achieving good grades fell who would you blame for that?

[Conor]

I did not claim they did. They just oversaw/oversee a system which it is now apparent is failing. Is the role of teachers to simply relate dept. of education material without comment, criticism or input?

More or less, yes.

Please, by all means defend teachers generous pay and tell me what it is they deliver that is worth so much renumeration and generous terms?

Teaching.