Investigation into leaving cert and university results.

[Thac0man]

(i) Curriculum and marking for the Leaving Certificate are centralised, aren't they? If so, any grade inflation presumably has to be the result of DoE policy. In any case, insofar as the primary use of the exam is entrance to third level, grade inflation is less of an issue (unless it rises to the extent of that in the UK, where one cannot adequately distinguish between candidates with A grades; and obviously, to the extent that the Leaving Certificate is being used as a terminal qualification, the problem is more serious).

(ii) We need more fine grained data for the third level sector. In particular, we need to know if increases are uniform across traditional universities and the new ITs, for example (which started awarding degrees in the last 15 years), and if the increases are independent of the proportion of students taking various subjects (if it's always been the case that a greater proportion of high grades is awarded in, say, business, and if proportionately more students have been enrolling in business courses, then that would lead to apparent grade inflation without any change in the underlying factors).

(iii) Blaming teachers' unions is quite odd; not only do the unions lack the power to do very much about grades, they also lack a clear interest in inflating grades. Moreover, using terms such as 'conspiracy' and 'fraud' appears somewhat hysterical.

As the representitive organisation of the teaching body, a body that has seen overseen a FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT rise in strieght 'A's, how is it odd to identify them as posibly being to blame? Has the TUI signalled past concern at this hyper inflation of educational results? The results, miraculous as they are, of their teaching or their marking? Please point to a concerted campaign by teachers to address this frankly startling rise, or explain it.

I would add that our childrens education is time and again put forward by the TUI as the one thing we, the public who pay their wages, cannot afford to gamble or compromise on. Yet it seems those things have been gravely compromised, and it seems we have been paying handsomely for that privilage. There are no rocks for anyone to hide under here. Teachers are responsbile in large part for the education of children in this country. On that basis generous pay has become the norm in the profession. Too late for the TUI to wash its hands of some or part of the responsiblity.

We might also ponder the reality that said low quality graduates are the future teachers.

[meriwether]

Well, I have to admit, I am not surprised with this conclusion.

Whilst I hate to sound like Bill Cullen "In my day.....", I picked up a book of recent past papers for the leaving cert in Easons sometime last year. It was the History past papers. And, to be honest, looking at the Ordinary Level History, I have a 9 year old who'd have made a reasonable stab at passing the paper. It was so simplistic that I couldn't call it an examination of any real kind. Feck sake, the whole first question was a cartoon and answering questions about the cartoon. If you could read you would get the answer.

I was in Easons recently, and saw Mary Coughlan pick up some past papers for ordinary level economics for the JC.
She had a very furrowed brow.

[rockofcashel]

I was in Easons recently, and saw Mary Coughlan pick up some past papers for ordinary level economics for the JC.
She had a very furrowed brow.

You don't do economics for the JC... you do Business Organisation... D'uh

She obviously thought she was looking at an economics books, but couldn't figure out why it was discussing making cakes, how to sterilise yourself after a cut etc etc... Home Economics stuff

[Thac0man]

I think it was the head of DCU who was on Mornnig Ireland this morning, and he made a series of very good points that it's the syllabus at LC which is more than likely the problem. Very little "learning" is required to get fantasticly high marks, the tests are more reliant on rote memorisation, leaving the students unable to think critically by the time they hit college.

It's reasonable to assume that as this becomes more transparent, and teachers get better at knowing how to train the kids to do well in the exams (as opposed to actually teaching them about business studies for instance), that the grades would show steady improvement.

Blanket memorisation has been the norm since my day. We have to keep in mind the dramatic rise in streight 'A's. Not only that but the gravity of the situation. For lack of natural resources and a tradition of heavy industry, education has been tauted for decades as one of our most attractive assets for foreign investors.

It is the case now that a major multi-national which is an important part of our economy, is red flagging the falling standards of Irish graduates. So it is not a historical problem, but one that seems to have come into the light in the past 15 to 20 years - and is ongoing. It is not a question of secondary teachers and university lecturers doing a better job. Patently they are not, because this issue has been raised by a percieved and recognised decline in standards. There is no getting around that. If students were memorising better or the staff adapting to the curriculim better, there would be no decline in the standard of our graduates. There is a fundemental mis-match here. How can we have higher grades, dramatically higher grades, yet lower quality students? The issue here is our education system is failing and more worrying is that system itself is producing dramatically opposite indicators to the contrary. It defys logic.

This cannot be gotten around. Companies need highly qualified graduates suitable for the task to which they are employed. We need said graduates to fuel the only plan we have to get ourselves out of the current and impending economic decline. So this goes to the heart of our national interests. No amount of bullsh*tting or a whitewash is going to make this go away. This is going to effect our economy at a crucial time. No cosy deal between the TUI and Dept. of Education is going to placate those who will nto invest further in ireland because such a deal will not deliever what they are being promised.

Couple falling standards of graduates whose qualifications are not fit for purpose with some of the highest salery cost bases in the EU - any government that could sell that to foreign companies wanting to set up here would get my vote because they would be nothing short of miracle makers.

[ibis]

Seen this discussed elsewhere, and the proposed explanation was that Irish universities are following the trend set in the UK, and for the same reasons - chronic underfunding means the universities need to attract overseas students (who pay full fees), and most overseas students are interested in which institutions will give them good grades. Of course, that doesn't explain the LC results.

[rubensni]

You don't do economics for the JC... you do Business Organisation... D'uh

She obviously thought she was looking at an economics books, but couldn't figure out why it was discussing making cakes, how to sterilise yourself after a cut etc etc... Home Economics stuff

Ha, they renamed it Business Studies a few years back because in this age of acronyms Business Organisation...well you can see where this is going.

Basically, BS is preferable to BO :mrgreen:

[bob3344]

Of course, that doesn't explain the LC results.

Probably just following the Brits again - they dumbed down the A levels. (and nordies were doing very well out of converting a levels into leaving cert points)

Everyone had a stake in this -
gov got to bang on about the stratospheric quality of school leavers - 'knowledge economy' strikes again.
Teachers weren't going to admit that they simply got their students to learn stuff off by heart, and weren't actually the best teachers in the world.
The colleges were getting free fees, so if students weren't capable of dealing with a dumbed down college course, at least they'd get a year out of them before they were kicked out.
And the students - they thought they were geniuses.

No one was going to rock the boat - if a multinational hadn't actually come out and introduced some reality, we'd be hearing the same sh1te for the next twenty years - how the Irish somehow went through some sort of genetic leap forward between 1992 & 2009 to justify the grade inflation.

[Half Nelson]

If companies such as Google and Intel are questioning our educational standards then we had better pay attention and quickly. Their bottom line won't tolerate bs.
Over the years there has been much anecdotal evidence of the quality of graduates - first in self-esteem, not so hot where it counts -type of thing.
I suspect the move to LC grinds has played a role in the lowering of true standards. It has raised the LC grades but has meant that some students artificially qualify for 3rd level courses, which are beyond their real abilities.

[anlkestony]

Definitely think people entering the workplace lack the quality of years gone by. they appear unable to think for themselves and have to be sonstantly spoonfed even after being in the job a while, results of Celtic Tiger?

[Thac0man]

If companies such as Google and Intel are questioning our educational standards then we had better pay attention and quickly. Their bottom line won't tolerate bs.
Over the years there has been much anecdotal evidence of the quality of graduates - first in self-esteem, not so hot where it counts -type of thing.
I suspect the move to LC grinds has played a role in the lowering of true standards. It has raised the LC grades but meant that some students artificially qualify for 3rd level courses, which are beyond their real abilities.

Very true. I would not blame teachers only though only for this decline in standards. They do not set the curriculam. It seems to be a case in the LC at least of conivance between the Teachers unions and the Dept. of Education. One of the other should have signalled something was wrong, as it is both seems to have been washing the hands of the other.

As for university results, it cannot be put down to a case of underfunding. There has recently been a emphasis on fee paying foreign students, true. But the renumeration of collage lecturers is in itself a matter of some controversey. Yet again another camp of Irish educators is churning out sub par graduates while being handsomely rewarded.

Over all the trend points to the social partners, both in terms of educators unions and the government, being equally responsible and complicite in what is a developing national scandal.

I agree with one poster here though, the Dept. of Education is not in a position to carry out a credable investigation into this.