Nationalism- take Ireland

[greenporcupine]

Sounds like Mr Peck has been reading too much Marx at a young age, and has developed a complex regarding Nationality and the difficulty that many Socialists have with it. Ie that all nationalism and cultures are just manifestations of the ruling class, a way to keep the working class down.

I do not buy it. Nationalism does't have to be aggressive, but it does entail standing up for ones rights and liberty and cultural identity. Such thoughts are why we now have our independence and why countries all over te world threw off Empires. Why the French resistance fought the Germans (mostly) and why 40-50 dutch people fought them as well. People confuse Nationalism with the actions of Fascist Germany. Of course that is over the top Nationalism, but it is a minority. There are many Darren Prior that would say that the way that you spell your name here was narrow nationalism, they are wrong and are coming from a highly idealogical and dangerous point of view.

The reason most ,not all, socialists do not like nationalism is because it identifies with a culture as being important ,of value, and it needs to be self examining and creatively challenging. Since they as individuals are afraid that they do not measure up to being any of those things ,they prefer to self identify with losers like themselves,who will not face the challenges of life,and prefer too, to pass the buck of responsibilty within community to the state,rather than do it themselves.
There is often too a jealousy factor. For a culture to be strong this is a very undermining part of some human natures.
Because somone has more ,whatever, than themselves some types cannot tolerate that ,and prefer to have a low level culture,like their own ,than to aspire through hard work etc to do ,have what they want.
A good culture interconnects,and supports and encourages self help.

[eoghanacht]

Our allegiance seems to be to corporate globalisation rather than to Ireland. Nationalism doesn't go down well with the neo-liberal agenda and the EU is doing a brilliant job in eroding the nation.
Anyone who bought into the hating the English and all things English because they were English were fools and detracted from where their anger should have been aimed at. Anger at the British establishment is reasonable.
Irish nationalism needs to have a review of itself. First off the nation hasn't yet been realised. Secondly the nationalism that came out of 26 county independence was extreme Gaelic nationalism. Gaelic culture should have its place but it further alienated those in the north-east who had no connection with that culture as "if you weren't Gaelic you weren't Irish seemed to be the message". Also, the sometimes extreme way that Gaelic games and language were applied made an awful lot of people bitter towards their own tradition.

If it's a choice of the pseduo-gaelic culture of the 26 or the completly made up triumphalist "britsh" culture of the north i know which one i'd opt for

[rant_and_rave]

At the root of many nationalisms is ethnic conflict and that applies especially in Ireland. The political fault lines in Ireland parallel ethnicity.

[18 Brumaire]

"if you weren't Gaelic you weren't Irish seemed to be the message".

But this message is the correct one. This is "good" nationalism. And pursing a united Ireland is inconsistent with this and is "bad" nationalism; simple, crude irredentistism. Until this is faced up to Irish nationalism is going nowhere.

[Caothaoir]

For myself, I have never understood why love of Ireland had to be synonymous with hatred of England.

Is it a hatred of England and the English - as is so often claimed by those wishing to denigrate Irish (and Scottish) nationalism - or is it, in fact, a justified hatred of the "British" state?
I think it's generally the latter.

Secondly the nationalism that came out of 26 county independence was extreme Gaelic nationalism. Gaelic culture should have its place but it further alienated those in the north-east who had no connection with that culture as "if you weren't Gaelic you weren't Irish seemed to be the message". Also, the sometimes extreme way that Gaelic games and language were applied made an awful lot of people bitter towards their own tradition.

Many people seem to have the idea that the more this country comes to resemble the "Mainland" the more palatable the idea of re-unification will become to Unionists.
We're just too Irish/Gaelic for them now but if we dump all that makes us distinct they'll be more "comfortable" in a united Ireland.
This is ridiculous and a false hope.

Why would they ever choose to be part of a pathetic imitation of the U.K. when they're already part of the real thing??
We can never win trying to "out-Brit" the Brits.


I believe a proud, self-confident Ireland with its own unique culture and language thriving is far more likely to attract a larger number of Unionists to take their place as members of this nation.
It's their heritage too and a true alternative to the bland, tired "popular" Anglo-American "culture" that so many people, everywhere, are increasingly disenchanted by.

[florin]

I guess you think the tooth fairy is responsible for the death and cultural obliteration of the country? Oh and that the illegitimate occupation of six of our counties is just dandy?

Our culture has also been strengthened by British occupation. Imposing the English language on us brought Irish literature into the mainstream of world writing - would anyone have read Séamus Seoige's "Portráid an Ealaíntóir mar Ógánach"? And we've had decades to revive our own arts. And the "occupation" is legitimate. It has been agreed to by the Irish and British states, and by the people of NI who voted for the GFA.

That's non-thinking baloney in my opinion. A bit like those anodyne car stickers that cringed 'I'm for peace' a few years back. I'm sure Stalin was 'for peace' too.

He was never for peace.

I'm not saying that you have to bear a grudge against every English person you meet, but, to me, pretending that they didn't bring death and destruction to this country for hundreds of years is absurd and a sign of a slightly odd mind.

Who's "they"? The Norman barons? English medieval yeomen? The Eton/Harrow élite? Industrial Revolution labourers? Victorian politicians? Who is this "Eternal Saxon" bringing death and destruction?

Did the ordinary English-, Scots- or Welshman (or -woman) do much better under feudalism? Wasn't Northern England ravaged by Thatcher just as Ireland was by Dublin Castle? Didn't Brian Boru tax the peasantry just as much as absentee landlords?

[florin]

Irish nationalism owes a back-handed 'thank you' to Britain, as after some centuries of destruction of all the native hierarchies, all Irish people were reduced to a devalued, impoverished, egalitarian group which had an enormous and, to them, self-evident common identity.

Really? There was no Anglo-Irish elite? No class of farmowners? No educated Catholic middle-class? No, 1922 was Year Zero apparently, when we were all proletarians.

Nationalism is a very useful value within a nation-state as people can possibly accept a decision/development which is to the disadvantage of their family/district/clan/language group/class/caste (to list some of the alterrnative identities to nation) but for the greater good of their co-nationals, and trust that the next time round the advantage might go to them.
A nation-state should be reluctant to throw away the cohesion of a common national identity.

But do we have a conception of a common national interest? Witness d'peeple of Limerick complaining about how they had lost "our minister" who did "great things" for the area.

[florin]

At the root of many nationalisms is ethnic conflict and that applies especially in Ireland. The political fault lines in Ireland parallel ethnicity.

But what about the United Irishmen?

[Ifor Bach]

Back again, Troll? Same crap,different name.

I never thought I'd back up Fraxinus, but you are exactly the kind of poster who drags politics.ie into the gutter.

Isn't there some children's forum where you could more happily contribute?

Shh, Joel, adults talking here.

[18 Brumaire]

Imposing the English language on us brought Irish literature into the mainstream of world writing - would anyone have read Séamus Seoige's "Portráid an Ealaíntóir mar Ógánach"?

Its not Irish literature. It just English literature written in Ireland. Indeed this wasn't even written in Ireland. Its just up market paddywhackery for the amusement of the British and Americans. Translating the title into Irish wont make it Irish either.