Nationalism- take Ireland

[TradCat]

I apologise for going over the top over the years criticising some people on this site in particular Bertie Ahern and Dermot Ahern.

Please, no apology needed. To get real change we need to call these people on their failings. Neither of them should be in public life.

On the main issue I think nationalism damaged us badly in the south not because independence wasn't worth having (it was) but because partition warped our politics on both sides of the border.

Without partition Fianna Fail would never have got away with their nonsense for so long. Nor would the Catholic Church have had such a monopoly on power. Nor would the "armed struggle" advocates have caused such wasted suffering.

Post-nationalism should start with the fact that the two states on the island have been complete failures in every respect mainly because every issue was dwarfed by the obsession with partition. The unionists ran a police state and the south elected Fianna Fail who, just to take an example, failed to maintain the rivers so that we suffered severe flooding this winter. In a sane country they would have been driven from office years ago.

To grow up we need to get rid of FF, smash the Catholic Church as a political force, allow people to decide that they don't want to study Irish at post-primary level and try to re-make the kind of state we would have had if partition had never happened. That is one that unionists would have been able to feel at home in.

We have to cut the crap. People who vote for disgraced politicians who deliver locally are reacting to a bad system. It has to be changed and we have to do it fast.

So thanks for the post Darren. It's an important debate worth having.

[Estragon]

Excellent post.
For myself, I have never understood why love of Ireland had to be synonymous with hatred of England.
But then, for some people this hatred is their raison d'étre

I guess you think the tooth fairy is responsible for the death and cultural obliteration of the country? Oh and that the illegitimate occupation of six of our counties is just dandy?

That's non-thinking baloney in my opinion. A bit like those anodyne car stickers that cringed 'I'm for peace' a few years back. I'm sure Stalin was 'for peace' too.

I'm not saying that you have to bear a grudge against every English person you meet, but, to me, pretending that they didn't bring death and destruction to this country for hundreds of years is absurd and a sign of a slightly odd mind.

I'm glad you are happy with your negligent, amputated nationalism, I don't think it's worth a whole lot though.

[Fraxinus_]

Our allegiance seems to be to corporate globalisation rather than to Ireland. Nationalism doesn't go down well with the neo-liberal agenda and the EU is doing a brilliant job in eroding the nation.
Anyone who bought into the hating the English and all things English because they were English were fools and detracted from where their anger should have been aimed at. Anger at the British establishment is reasonable.
Irish nationalism needs to have a review of itself. First off the nation hasn't yet been realised. Secondly the nationalism that came out of 26 county independence was extreme Gaelic nationalism. Gaelic culture should have its place but it further alienated those in the north-east who had no connection with that culture as "if you weren't Gaelic you weren't Irish seemed to be the message". Also, the sometimes extreme way that Gaelic games and language were applied made an awful lot of people bitter towards their own tradition.

[clonycavanman]

In Germany (eg Prussia) and Britain, until 1940,( Britain's war of independence), patriotism was about imposing your rule upon others. In Ireland and Mexico patriotism was about freeing the people to assert self-determination.

Irish nationalism owes a back-handed 'thank you' to Britain, as after some centuries of destruction of all the native hierarchies, all Irish people were reduced to a devalued, impoverished, egalitarian group which had an enormous and, to them, self-evident common identity.

Nationalism is a very useful value within a nation-state as people can possibly accept a decision/development which is to the disadvantage of their family/district/clan/language group/class/caste (to list some of the alterrnative identities to nation) but for the greater good of their co-nationals, and trust that the next time round the advantage might go to them.
A nation-state should be reluctant to throw away the cohesion of a common national identity.

(Not all our fellow EU states have Ireland's origin in a common identity. Spain is a series of regions knocked together by dynastic marriages. Belgium is what was left over when France and the Netherlands stopped fighting.)

[joel]

Our allegiance seems to be to corporate globalisation rather than to Ireland. Nationalism doesn't go down well with the neo-liberal agenda and the EU is doing a brilliant job in eroding the nation.
Anyone who bought into the hating the English and all things English because they were English were fools and detracted from where their anger should have been aimed at. Anger at the British establishment is reasonable.
Irish nationalism needs to have a review of itself. First off the nation hasn't yet been realised. Secondly the nationalism that came out of 26 county independence was extreme Gaelic nationalism. Gaelic culture should have its place but it further alienated those in the north-east who had no connection with that culture as "if you weren't Gaelic you weren't Irish seemed to be the message". Also, the sometimes extreme way that Gaelic games and language were applied made an awful lot of people bitter towards their own tradition.

You are an Irish-hating Troll. A hundred user names, constant message: elimination of the Irish.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Mainstream-nationalism is a matter of national-defence in the cultural and sovereigntist sense. It is the embodiment of the principle that charity begins at home. Nationalism liberated Ireland from British rule, and seeks to protect what was gained from encroachment by foreign-powers. It also seeks the preservation of the Irish langauge and those Irish customs that define us as different to other nations - which I do not believe include our former domination by the Catholic Church. You cannot be a true nationalist if you favour the surrender - incremental or otherwise - of Irish sovereignty to the EU. Nationalist Ireland must peacefully mobilise against the new-age Vichyism contaminating sections of the Irish elite with respect to the agenda of eroding Irish sovereignty in the context of Eurofederalism.

[Fraxinus_]

You are an Irish-hating Troll. A hundred user names, constant message: elimination of the Irish.

Highlight those parts in my post you jackass.

[TheTipperaryMan]

Nationalism is healthy when it motivates Irish people to value their independence and freedom and encourages public service, solidarity and a sense of purpose in our society.

It is unhealthy when it leads to a lazy narrow-minded bigotted sectarian xenophobic anti-intellectual boorishness reeking of insecurity that stunts progress.

We need more of the first kind of nationalism and we have had more than enough of the second kind of nationalism for much of the 20th century.

[joel]

Nationalism is healthy when it motivates Irish people to value their independence and freedom and encourages public service, solidarity and a sense of purpose in our society.

It is unhealthy when it leads to a lazy narrow-minded bigotted sectarian xenophobic anti-intellectual boorishness reeking of insecurity that stunts progress.

We need more of the first kind of nationalism and we have had more than enough of the second kind of nationalism for much of the 20th century.

Back again, Troll? Same crap,different name.

[greenporcupine]

Sounds like Mr Peck has been reading too much Marx at a young age, and has developed a complex regarding Nationality and the difficulty that many Socialists have with it. Ie that all nationalism and cultures are just manifestations of the ruling class, a way to keep the working class down.

I do not buy it. Nationalism does't have to be aggressive, but it does entail standing up for ones rights and liberty and cultural identity. Such thoughts are why we now have our independence and why countries all over te world threw off Empires. Why the French resistance fought the Germans (mostly) and why 40-50 dutch people fought them as well. People confuse Nationalism with the actions of Fascist Germany. Of course that is over the top Nationalism, but it is a minority. There are many Darren Prior that would say that the way that you spell your name here was narrow nationalism, they are wrong and are coming from a highly idealogical and dangerous point of view.

Agree.
In the struggle to live ,love ,create,even destroy tribes formed a close bond
and had more in common at a 'root' level than with any other grouping .
While we may move on in a way ,at some 'deep' level ,the genes show it too,that there is a commonality.
Those who have a long history together ,and common larger values,if not in the smaller details,often are willing to die to keep those values,to stay loyal to those who bred them and created them.
It is a huge mistake to think that the more diluted something is the better it is.
It is particularly true now ,for I have found ,that those who are least creative,
those who do NOT build from scratch,nor can maintain things are those most likely to be world culturalists.They are here there ,everywhere,but develop nothing . They are never there when need them .

A strong person, as with a strong identity based in a long cultural heritage,
can take on the most difficult of enemies,and falsifiers,that is why it [identity] is feared by those who wish to take you over.


Can I add Vietnam to the list of national identities to stand against evil.
Yes it can be formidable against takeovers,either of a cultural or a physical enemy. But to work it must be based on the good things shared,creative activity,learning ,spiritual goals,lots of OPEN discussion, Political activity of all,not just a few.