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Thread: An interesting article on how Irish schools came under control of religion

  1. #41
    Politics.ie Regular Toland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rant_and_rave View Post
    (i) He does actually. "Thenceforth, religion was to permeate the whole curriculum".
    He doesn't actually. He says Faulkner said that thenceforth religion was to permeate the whole curriculum.

    Quote Originally Posted by rant_and_rave View Post
    (ii) the process was well under way and has started in the universities in the late 60s.
    "The Rocky Road to Dublin", which someone thoughtfully posted a few days ago, was made in 1968, and is very instructive on the state of play in 1968. 1971 was only three years later.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75t38K_tQ6w&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- The Rocky Road To Dublin (1968)[/ame]
    Last edited by Toland; 16th February 2010 at 11:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rant_and_rave View Post
    I read the article and it is interesting but I fail to see the point. In practice non Catholics attending Catholic schools, primary and secondary, have always been exempt from RE classes and activities related to preparation for first communion and confirmation. That continued after 1972.

    What does "permeate the whole curriculum" mean?

    Drawing on this assertion, in 1971 the Department of Education, under Padraic Faulkner, issued new rules for primary education based, “on the following theses . . . that the separation of religious and secular instruction into differentiated subject compartments, [which had been a key element of the system since its inception] serves only to throw the whole educational function out of focus”.Thenceforth, religion was to permeate the whole curriculum.


    I could understand if Garret was referring to 1872 and not 1972. I would suggest that the spirit of liberalism that engulfed the Catholic Church after Vatican 2 would have undermined the conservative moral values that Garret himself was trying to change and this would have been reflected in what was taught in the schools. Indeed my research indicates that little or no religion was taught in Irish secondary schools from the 1970s onwards. Would those of you who have been through the Irish secondary school system like to comment on this? How much time did the schools spend on RE compared to other subjects?
    In my recollection religion classes themselves didn't take up that much time - two, or maybe three, classes per week.

    However, we had to say a prayer at the start of certain classes (maths being one of them), mass was said in the school on certain occasions - attendance being compulsory for those who were even nominally Catholic (saying you were an atheist at 15 was NOT allowed or accepted!), there were various 'retreats', history and even geography lessons were used to push the religious angle, the only school chaplain was a Catholic priest who was invariably invited to attend/lead prayers at important school events and times of year and it was acceptable to be late for school on rare occasions, Ash Wednesday being one of them.

    In short, there was a strongly religious atmosphere - and this was at a nominally secular community school!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggressivesecularist View Post
    He doesn't actually. He says Faulkner said that thenceforth religion was to permeate the whole curriculum.



    "The Rocky Road to Dublin", which someone thoughtfully posted a few days ago, was made in 1968, and is very instructive on the state of play in 1968. 1971 was only three years later.

    [img]<object style="height: 344px; width: 425px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/75t38K_tQ6w"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/75t38K_tQ6w" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></object>[/img]
    This sentence is Garret's "Thenceforth, religion was to permeate the whole curriculum".

    The first two paragraphs are clear.

    I INTEND to write next week about some of the issues recently raised in connection with religion and education. But I do not think these matters can be usefully debated without a clear understanding of the complex historical background to the present arrangements in relation to primary education.

    This background includes radical changes made 40 years ago, of which most people seem unaware, which substituted a fully denominational structure for one that in the first 40 years of our State had remained de jure interdenominational – but in which, of course, the churches had from the 1830s been playing a significant role.


    While I agree with his summation of the history of primary schools I do not agree that there were radical changes 40 years ago circa 1970. The fact is that primary schools were officially denominational since the foundation of the free state. The schools had boards of management that were distinctly either Catholic or Protestant. Protestant schools received special funding from the state to make them economic in areas that had few Protestants. Protestants only attended Catholic schools if no Protestant schools were available.

    Any suggestion that the primary school system was non denominational before 1971 is ludicrous.

    Cackheaded ideas have always bedevilled Garret Fitzgerald. He was the most well meaning but least credible leader in Irish politics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggressivesecularist View Post
    This is possibly vaguely accurate in some secondary schools, but in my experience at primary level (early to mid-seventies at Booterstown Boys National School) about one fifth to a quarter of the time was spent on religion. Preparation for communion and confirmation was particularly time consuming. And it could have entered any part of the school day (whether at primary or secondary level).

    It is possible (but not likely imo) that my school was more religious than most.
    Don't think so. There was a massive amount of time spent on religion, especially on preparation for communion and confirmation. We had weeks where we spent hours each day going through the Cathecism question by question, answer by answer. The teacher tried to get us to learn the whole thing off by heart.

    I remember the teacher being nervous as hell when the time came for the parish priest (who was basically his boss as head of the school's board of management) to examine us on our knowledge of the Cathecism.

    The look on both their faces when I got my answer wrong is still with me to this day!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rant_and_rave View Post
    Any suggestion that the primary school system was non denominational before 1971 is ludicrous.
    Couldn't agree more.

    Whether that's a legitimate interpretation of what Garrett said is another matter.

    You have a point, but you're seriously overegging the pudding, imo.

    Garrett did use the expression "de jure".

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    Quote Originally Posted by rant_and_rave View Post
    Any suggestion that the primary school system was non denominational before 1971 is ludicrous.
    Which is probably why Garrett Fitzgerald doesn't suggest it.

    What he does state, quite clearly, is that explicit state recognition of the denominational character of primary schools came in 1965.

    He also points out that curriculum changes post 1971 meant that the separation of religion from the rest of the curriculum (allowing some pupils to opt-out) which had prevailed until then was abandoned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sondagefaux View Post
    There was a massive amount of time spent on religion, especially on preparation for communion and confirmation.
    Not in every school and that has been ascertained by the replies to this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sondagefaux View Post
    Which is probably why Garrett Fitzgerald doesn't suggest it.

    What he does state, quite clearly, is that explicit state recognition of the denominational character of primary schools came in 1965.

    He also points out that curriculum changes post 1971 meant that the separation of religion from the rest of the curriculum (allowing some pupils to opt-out) which had prevailed until then was abandoned.
    You could not be more wrong. Are there any reports of primary or indeed secondary school Protestant children being forced to attend RE classes or stand up and say Catholic prayers in RC schools. What do you mean by separation of the curriculum? Just how do you infuse RE into a maths or geography class?

    Back up your assertion that there were radical changes in the curriculum after 1971.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rant_and_rave View Post
    You could not be more wrong. Are there any reports of primary or indeed secondary school Protestant children being forced to attend RE classes or stand up and say Catholic prayers in RC schools.
    When did I claim this or imply this? BTW, if you read the article below, you'll see that the answer is yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by rant_and_rave View Post
    What do you mean by separation of the curriculum? Just how do you infuse RE into a maths or geography class?

    Back up your assertion that there were radical changes in the curriculum after 1971.
    This is from the Rules for National Schools published in 1965, the year in which, as Garrett Fitzgerald states, recognition of the denominational character of primary schools was first given explicitly by the state.

    ‘Of all parts of a school curriculum, Religious Instruction is by far the most important, as its subject matter, God’s honour and service, includes the proper use of all man’s faculties, and affords the most powerful inducements to their proper use. Religious Instruction is, therefore, a fundamental part of the school course, and a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school.’
    Rules for National Schools under the Department of Education (Dublin: The Stationery Office, 1965) r 68.

    This is from the opening paragraph to the 1999 revised Primary Schools Curriculum.

    The Primary School Curriculum celebrates the uniqueness of the child, as t is expressed in each child’s personality, intelligence and potential for evelopment. It is designed to nurture the child in all dimensions of his or her life—spiritual, moral, cognitive, emotional, imaginative, aesthetic, social and physical.
    http://www.ncca.ie/uploadedfiles/Cur.../Intro_Eng.pdf

    Here's an abstract of a legal paper on the Irish primary school curriculum.

    In the Republic of Ireland nearly all primary schools are state-funded but the vast majority of these schools are owned and managed by religious bodies. There is no system of state-run schools. This paper discusses the protection of freedom of religion within this unique system of schooling. In particular, it examines the notion of 'the integrated curriculum' whereby all schools in receipt of state funding are legally obliged to ensure that a religious spirit informs and vivifies the whole work of the school. The paper identifies the international human rights standards relevant to the teaching of religion in schools. Through empirical evidence based on interviews with parents, teachers and pupils, an assessment is made of how far Irish law and practice respect these standards. The outcome of this evaluation of the use of religious bodies in non-state service provision is discussed.

    This is a section called 'The practice of the integrated curriculum' from that article.

    The practice of the integrated curriculum

    The 1971 primary school curriculum clearly endorsed the principle of the integrated curriculum and instructed schools to integrate religious themes and values as much as possible into other lessons. In the introduction to part one of the Teachers’ Handbook it was stated that the curriculum should be seen ‘more as an integral whole rather than as a logical structure containing conveniently differentiated parts’. It asserted that ‘the separation of religious and secular instruction into differentiated subject compartments serves only to throw the whole educational function out of focus’. All schools were consequently expected to offer a curriculum where religious and secular instruction could be integrated. While the 1999 Primary School Curriculum
    does not express support for an integrated curriculum in such an explicit manner, it does state that it encompasses the philosophical thrust of the 1971 document and it recognises the principle of ‘the integrated nature of the curriculum’ as being central to that philosophy.

    The continued integrated nature of the curriculum may be seen, for example, in the current Church of Ireland (Anglican) religious education programme, ‘Follow Me’. This programme is constructed using the same framework of strand units found throughout the rest of the curriculum:
    This structure can facilitate the integration of religious education with the rest of the curriculum connections can be made with other curriculum areas which can give religious education a place in the life of the school beyond the time allocated to it each day.

    How does this interpretation of religion within the curriculum manifest itself in
    practice, and what are the experiences of teachers, parents and pupils? Over two thirds of the schools surveyed stated that the ethos of the school is integrated into other lessons.

    The degree of integration varies from a comprehensive inclusion of religion – ‘permeates all lessons’, ‘is an integral part of the school curriculum’ and
    ‘a Christian ethos predominates throughout’ – to a more general emphasis – ‘where appropriate, a Catholic/Christian viewpoint is used in lessons’ and ‘general reference as occurs’.

    Frequently, the ethos of the school informs the position taken in regard to
    the subject called ‘Social, Personal and Health Education’, where issues surrounding relationships and sexuality are taught.

    The pupils and parents interviewed gave a picture of the extent of the integration of religion (depending upon the individual teacher) into secular subjects such as nature studies, poetry, art, history, drama, singing, reading classes and language lessons:

    ‘We were talking about swifts. I remember asking, how do they know when to
    come back from Africa and the teacher said that it was just because God made them that way. And nearly all the songs we do are religious songs.’ [pupil]

    ‘A lot of things are attributed to God, like rainbows and the rain coming down.’
    [parent]

    ‘It can be very subtle. All projects seem to be religious based. We don’t get too uptight about it but all the projects are religion based.’ [parent]

    Teachers also spoke of the extent they were expected to integrate religion into other subjects:
    ‘Yes, you do, definitely you do [teach an integrated curriculum]. First of all,
    we were told to teach that way in college . . . That’s how we were taught. So we would teach an integrated curriculum. For example, in our school we have an assembly once a week on Friday and a different class takes the assembly each week. So if you were doing assembly that week you would spend half your week getting ready for assembly – a little drama, your song, prayer. And that takes place outside of your half-hour of religion . . . And we’d say grace before we eat our lunch.’


    ‘How far it is brought into the curriculum probably depends on individual
    teachers and how strongly teachers feel about their own faiths. Certainly if someone was a religious fanatic they could run amok. Moral religious values would tend to come into the curriculum, for example, abortion with older children.’

    The expectation that a religious ethos should permeate beyond specific religion classes is not confined solely to its anticipated integration with secular subjects. As noted at the beginning of this paper, r 68 of the Rules for National Schools insists that ‘a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school’ and not simply be restricted to the taught hours of the school day.

    The questionnaire survey confirmed that this ‘religious spirit’ does indeed permeate throughout the school day and in a variety of ways.

    For example, 70% of schools surveyed by questionnaire hold a school assembly on a regular basis. Of these, 80% have a religious focus and they comprise prayers, bible stories, hymn singing and addresses by clergy. In 50%of cases no opt-out clause is offered to any children not of that religious belief. In those schools that do offer an opt-out facility, the choices include remaining in class (3%): ‘children who do not want to participate in the morning prayers are expected to stay silent and just show
    respect to those praying’; or coming to school late (33%): ‘we have mass in the morning on occasions and the children can come in after if they wish’.

    Some schools (30%) hold class assemblies, all of which are religious in content. Only 33% of these schools offer an opt-out provision to non-participating pupils, the most common being to remain in the room: ‘work at side of room during prayers or just stay in seat reading etc’.

    The ethos of the school is integrated into other activities. Thus, 68% of schools hold religious services during school hours, either at the local church or on school premises. The frequency of these services range from once a month through to ‘once or twice a year’, and include services at Christmas, Easter, Ash Wednesday, feast days, for a funeral (parent or school member), anniversary mass (former principal or recent past pupil) and for the sacrament of reconciliation. The majority of these services (70%) are of a denominational nature with the remainder being broadly Christian in focus. The most common opt-out provisions include the option to ‘study
    on own under supervision’ or ‘to be collected from school by parents’.

    Schools also reported that the ethos of the school was promoted through religious symbols on walls, altars in classrooms, grace before meals, prayers at the start and end of the day, visits to churches, visits from clergy and the staging of Nativity plays and carol singing at Christmas time.

    The majority of school policy documents, submitted with completed questionnaires, were explicit in stating the extent of the permeation of the school ethos in school life: a ‘Christian Spirit will inform all the activities of the school’; a ‘Christian environment is offered’ by the school; and, in explaining the extent of school links with local parishes, ‘this, for example, is shown by the fact that the pupils attend services in the local church and the Rector visits the school on a regular basis in his role as Chaplain’. These reports are in keeping with statements by religious authorities which have been consistent in explicitly asserting the importance of the school ethos to the life of their schools.

    For example, in February 2005, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin re-emphasised the need for a Catholic school to ‘have a defined ethos which should be verifiable in all its aspects’. He noted that ‘a Catholic ethos must be the integrating factor for all aspects of the life of the Catholic school’ and that a Catholic school must ‘place at the centre of its mission the passing on of the message of Jesus Christ, his truth and his love, from generation to generation, as a factor of liberation, integration and hope in the young person’s life’.

    The parents interviewed confirmed that an integrated curriculum is practised
    throughout the school day:

    ‘It actually turned out in reality that religion is not a subject that they do for a half-hour. It’s constantly brought up again and again like prayers here and there, colouring in pictures, say of the nativity.’

    ‘It was 24 /7!’

    I had a strong sense that everything was predicated on following the Church
    of Ireland [ethos]. It came into every subject. I find it hard to pinpoint . . . but a strong Church of Ireland Christian atmosphere did pervade
    .’

    Religion comes into almost everything, from blessing themselves in the morning to prayers before dinner and after dinner, at the end of the day. The priest calls in frequently with little messages.’

    Teachers also described the pervasive nature of the integrated curriculum:

    ‘Religion crops up a lot. For example, if a child’s granny dies then the class
    says a prayer.’

    ‘Certainly it’s there throughout the day, and throughout the calendar year with feast days etc. Religion is there . . . I think it is integrated into the life of the school, maybe not into all subjects. You have your prayers in the morning, your prayers before you eat and your prayers going home in the evening time.

    The questionnaire and interview surveys provide a qualitative insight into how the integrated curriculum is taught in Irish primary schools. To determine whether the integrated curriculum and its teachings are in accord with the standards of international human rights law, it is necessary to ask two critical questions derived from international jurisprudence.

    Is the nature of the religious knowledge taught through an integrated curriculum conveyed in a manner that can be described as ‘objective, critical and pluralistic manner’ or ‘neutral and objective’?

    Does such teaching have an aim of indoctrination? These are now addressed, using the interview responses.

    Neutral and objective?
    When asked whether they believed that the religious knowledge put across through the integrated curriculum was conveyed in an objective, critical and pluralistic manner, parents were of the opinion that this was not the case:

    ‘How can that be possible to integrate doctrinal beliefs in an objective, critical
    and pluralist manner?’

    ‘No allowance is made for those who may have had a different perspective. It’s not presented with any balance – it’s presented as fact.’

    ‘It couldn’t be objective and pluralist as long as these really pure Catholic Virgin Mary prayers are being used. It is definitely not pluralist or objective, not at all. It is specifically Catholic.’

    ‘It’s only one religion [that is taught], not the subject of religion. A big difference.Not integrating a multi-denominational approach to religion. They’re being anti all those things.’

    It’s taught as fact . . . it’s taught as something that definitely, obviously, really happened. God is this, Jesus did that, instead of saying some people think this or that . . . They teach it only in its most simplistic, narrow form. It’s not taught in a broad ethical or philosophical way.’

    Aim of indoctrination?
    With respect to the aim of indoctrination, parents were adamant that the lack of objectivity and neutrality in the teaching of the integrated curriculum combined with its compulsory nature resulted in the involuntary indoctrination of their children into a particular religious faith:

    ‘If you’re only steeped in one religion – is that not indoctrination? It is all
    indoctrination simply because adults have the influence to children at a very basic level at an early age without perhaps understanding that they are [indoctrinating], a child absorbs.’

    ‘My problem would be the indoctrination part of the religious teaching and the
    acceptance of it as a school subject, an educational pursuit. These are issues kids are not aware of.’

    Teachers confirmed the inherent aim of indoctrination in the integrated curriculum in Irish primary schools:

    ‘It could vary from individual to individual. More conservative teachers could be teaching in a way that is indoctrination, mightn’t even be aware of it. Others may be more objective. Once something is integrated it becomes difficult not to indoctrinate people by sheer dint of its integration . . . And where do you put the children who do not want to be exposed to that religion?’

    The school’s role is to indoctrinate. That is its purpose.’

    That is what I think people have interpreted as ethos – that they have the freedom to indoctrinate. They have every right to indoctrinate. It’s people’s working definition of ethos. It’s almost a licence to do so . . . Part of the religious programme is to teach them a prayer before lunch, after lunch and a prayer in the morning. It leaks into the school day. Definitely indoctrination. Definitely directed at a god.

    This account of the aim of the integrated curriculum would most certainly suggest that its teachings are aimed at advocating a specific religious view.

    Schools are not simply facilitating the study of religion but are pursuing an aim of indoctrination by seeking to impose a particular religious belief through a devotional rather than academic approach to the teaching of religion.

    Opt-out possibility
    As already noted, international human rights law holds that if doctrinal religion is taught in schools, then those individuals who do not want to participate in such teaching must be offered an opt-out provision.60

    However, teachers confirmed the difficulties that would exist for a child who wanted to avoid the teachings of the integrated curriculum:

    ‘[The integrated curriculum is] very real. Religion is integrated into other
    subjects which is why it is impossible for a child who is a non-believer [to avoid it]. There’s no question of that. Christmas cards, songs, if you were in third class you might become the choir for the communion children . . . Obviously it’s integrated, of course it is.’


    ‘Generally, assembly is religious. The drama is a dramatised bible story with
    the song and the prayer, eg thank you God for trees, God keep us safe. And on a practical level, you practise [for assembly] in the hall and you may not be able to practise in your official [religious education] half-hour. So if you had a child using the opt-out clause, can you say to the Mum well today don’t bring them in at 12 because that’s when the hall is free. It would be very, very difficult . . .’

    It would be near nigh impossible [for a child to opt out of the integrated
    curriculum].’


    ‘[Minority-belief children] can’t be taken out of morning prayers, they can’t be taken out if a religious issue comes up in a reading . . . To my way of thinking this is practically unworkable . . . I would say that in 99.9% of cases where a child is not practising the religion of the school they are attending it is a very alienating experience for them . . . And that’s one of the reasons why I feel there shouldn’t be something in schools that’s going to reinforce in children feelings of alienation, you don’t belong to this community. We’ll tolerate you here to do your maths but we won’t tolerate you for being essentially
    different.’


    Furthermore, parents reported that the pervasiveness of such an integrated curriculum and the impossibility of opting out failed to respect their philosophical and religious convictions:

    ‘I’m unhappy with the way that the Catholic religion is playing such an important role in the whole curriculum. It is blended in . . . They pray before the lessons start in the morning, they pray before every break and they pray before school inishes. You couldn’t possibly avoid it. Even if we took him out of religious classes. . . he would still constantly be confronted with religious Catholic belief . . . there is no way that you could possibly avoid it.’

    ‘[The school authorities] objected to me withdrawing my child from Christian
    drama: they told me that he cannot be excused from this. [They were] very, very unsympathetic, very dogmatic
    .’

    ‘I asked my daughter what happened [in morning prayers], just to see if she
    did get the opportunity not to do it and whether other kids don’t do it. She was saying “I can’t do anything about it”. She was saying sometimes she doesn’t want to but she has to do it every morning.’

    On Ash Wednesday they put ashes on his head. They knew my views on
    religion but I came to pick him up one day and he had ashes on his forehead. I
    asked the teacher about it, she said “ah sure all the children were having it, it’s not that much of a big deal”.


    Alternative provision
    The evidence set out above illustrates how a doctrinal integrated curriculum, from which no opt out is possible, is practised in Irish primary schools. In such circumstances, the availability of acceptable alternative schooling, as argued above, would be a critical consideration in determining whether religious freedom was adequately protected in an education system.

    In the Irish context the availability of a state-funded alternative to denominational schooling is extremely limited. As was noted above, only 41 out of approximately 3171 primary schools in the country are multi-denominational in ethos. These schools are typically vastly over-subscribed.

    If parents wish to send a child to a multidenominational school and there is no such school in the locality, or there are insufficient places in a local multi-denominational school, they must get together with other like-minded parents to form an association and establish a school. This process is a daunting one. Furthermore, it is one in which the state offers no initial encouragement or assistance, either in terms of expertise or finance.

    The lack of options together with a resulting sense of powerlessness was a dominant theme emerging from interviews with parents:

    ‘It is an important issue [the integrated curriculum] but I don’t know what I can do about it . . . No one complains about it . . . there is no where else to go.’

    ‘There weren’t any alternatives, there were absolutely none. Home education
    would have been the only alternative.’

    ‘You feel impotent as a parent.’

    The nature of the integrated curriculum found in Irish primary schools suggests that ts practice fails to respect international guarantees of religious freedom: its teachings are doctrinal; its aim is one of indoctrination; opting out is impossible and alternative acceptable schooling is extremely limited.

    The question that then arises is whether domestic law can offer protection to the rights of those who believe that their religious freedom is violated in this way.
    Freedom of religion in the Irish primary school system: a failure to protect human rights? Alison Mawhinney, Queen’s University Belfast, Legal Studies, Vol. 27 No. 3, September 2007, pp. 379–403.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sondagefaux View Post
    Don't think so. There was a massive amount of time spent on religion, especially on preparation for communion and confirmation. We had weeks where we spent hours each day going through the Cathecism question by question, answer by answer. The teacher tried to get us to learn the whole thing off by heart.

    I remember the teacher being nervous as hell when the time came for the parish priest (who was basically his boss as head of the school's board of management) to examine us on our knowledge of the Cathecism.

    The look on both their faces when I got my answer wrong is still with me to this day!

    I had a very similar experience in a Catholic primary school in the 1970s. Hours and hours of learning off catechism questions before the exam. All other subjects were dropped for a week. I was bored out of my mind and found myself pleading "Miss, can we do Irish?" even though I didn't like Irish at the time. The teacher told us everyone who was a pagan wouldn't go to heaven. Even at age 10 this struck me as unfair. "Miss, what if they were good pagans?"

    At secondary school we had to say a prayer before each class. All the teachers rattled off a Hail Mary at supersonic speed except for our history teacher. She had too much integrity to go along with the charade of piety and said nothing.

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