Record number applying for CAO - good or bad?

[iartaoiseach]

No so, I have never come across a study that shows that lack of places at 3rd level improves anything. You again are making the mistake of trying to tack your 'greed is good' ideology on to aspects of life where it has no place. And really if life was just so simple!!!!

I agree with your point there. what the points race does in many cases is force people into unsuitable courses simply because they haven't the points to do what they wish. It is also not just a case of studying harder, whether or not a students parents can cough up €40 per hour for grinds is a huge factor in the modern points race. it does away with the level playing field and the poorer students are at a disadvantage from the off. toughbut fair has demonstrated a fair few times that while he may think he is tough he often isn't very fair. this is a bigger more complex issue than any 5 or ten line post can cover.

[Gael Nua]

This probably came up already recently about the call in Briatin to reduce Uni courses to 2 years from 3 years there 'Mandelson: Do your degree in two years - Education News, Education - The Independent', so why not do the same here? When i went to college the terms varied from 17-23 hours of lectures a week, no question that could be increased by at least 50%. Reducing the course time would lead to more resources being available to bring in more students over time. Also having looked at the huge amount of sporting facilities (and i am a sports nut) being built at the likes of CIT, UCC, UL, it beggars belief that that space and money couldn't have been used to build more lecture space. Make room for them all, get them stuck in intensive education and i feel we'll reap the rewards.

[iartaoiseach]

I graduated in the 80's, when there was extreme competition for 3rd level places. The only thing that motivated me in making my CAO choices was the possibility of getting a job. So I got a life and a job, not a lifestyle, which is what the current crop of students seem to expect as a right.

I went to college in the early 90's and I can tell you that someone with 500+ points was almost unheard of(medicine actuary maybe). It is now quite common even for students applying for relatively easy courses. this I think is a result of the grinds culture and many of these students can't cope in college where they aren't spoon fed. the competition for places is imo just as hot as before except now you are fecked unless you can score 5 A's. this was not the case in previous decades.

[toughbutfair]

I agree with your point there. what the points race does in many cases is force people into unsuitable courses simply because they haven't the points to do what they wish. It is also not just a case of studying harder, whether or not a students parents can cough up €40 per hour for grinds is a huge factor in the modern points race. it does away with the level playing field and the poorer students are at a disadvantage from the off. toughbut fair has demonstrated a fair few times that while he may think he is tough he often isn't very fair. this is a bigger more complex issue than any 5 or ten line post can cover.

I never got a grind in my life,nor do I know anybody who did. I agree that students shouldn't pick unsuitable course.

No system is perfect - what are you going to do? outlaw grinds?

[hopi watcher]

No system is perfect - what are you going to do? outlaw grinds?

No, improve choice.

[toughbutfair]

I went to college in the early 90's and I can tell you that someone with 500+ points was almost unheard of(medicine actuary maybe). It is now quite common even for students applying for relatively easy courses. this I think is a result of the grinds culture and many of these students can't cope in college where they aren't spoon fed. the competition for places is imo just as hot as before except now you are fecked unless you can score 5 A's. this was not the case in previous decades.

They dumbed it down too. The honours maths was dumbed down before I did mine (1994), many of us got "A"s and although bright I don't claim to a genius, it used to mean alot but when many got the mark it was just good as opposed to great. It then continued to dumb down after I left. I got to know the maths teacher and used to bump into him every few months and he said the tricky parts that made you think are being taken out, now it is just apply a formula.

[sauntersplash]

I graduated in the 80's, when there was extreme competition for 3rd level places. The only thing that motivated me in making my CAO choices was the possibility of getting a job.

Goodness, it must have been like storming the beach at Normandy or something. How did you people ever get through the hardship.

So I got a life and a job, not a lifestyle, which is what the current crop of students seem to expect as a right.

What does this even mean?

[toughbutfair]

No, improve choice.

Choice of what? courses?

Should average students be able to get a course studying medicine?

[iartaoiseach]

I never got a grind in my life,nor do I know anybody who did. I agree that students shouldn't pick unsuitable course.

No system is perfect - what are you going to do? outlaw grinds?

Me neither but you must be sheltered or getting on in years if you don't know someone who had grinds. I am of the opinion that if you can't understand a subject (eg maths)with the normal level of tuition than you will definitely struggle when a college lecturer goes through the course at a rate of knots in a class of 50+ students. not to mention when you try to actually apply the subject in a job situation. for that reason doing away with grinds might not be a bad idea.(barring the fact that some of our teachers can't actually teach)
true no system is perfect but the irish one is particularly imperfect-as per usual.

[iartaoiseach]

They dumbed it down too. The honours maths was dumbed down before I did mine (1994), many of us got "A"s and although bright I don't claim to a genius, it used to mean alot but when many got the mark it was just good as opposed to great. It then continued to dumb down after I left. I got to know the maths teacher and used to bump into him every few months and he said the tricky parts that made you think are being taken out, now it is just apply a formula.

Maybe true. you got an A? well done - once upon a time that was as rare as hens teeth. I did have a stab at honours maths in 4th year-that was in 1991 pre dumb down?-but honestly I was too damn lazy to work at it . however I don't think it is possible to dumb down integration too much you either understand it or you get it wrong imo.