Surname gaelicised by teacher

[uriah]

Then your surname must be hard to Gaelicize. You didn't happen to go to a C of I school by any chance?

The school hasn't changed this kid's surname. His surname is still the same on his birth certificate, will still be the same in future on his passport, driving licence, the electoral register etc etc.

If his parents don't want a different version of his surname used, then just politely inform the school instead of going ballistic.

Why didn't they inform the school in advance?

If their son was lactose intolerant they'd tell the school, if their son was a vegan they'd tell the school.

I don't see this as being much different to those situations.

If a parent, on completing an enrolment form when the child enters school, supplies the child's official (and only) name, surely they might have a reasonable expectation that this is the name which the school woiuld use?
You think the parent should then consider it necessary to inform the school again that this is the name they expect the school to use?

And you think that this is not much different to informing the school that the child is lactose intolerant or a vegan ?

You have a strange 'logic'.

[LiquidPaddy]

I have an English surname, my family name has been in Ireland since the Elizabethan plantation. The vast majority of my forebears were of Irish stock but, as is normal, I have the surname of my patrilineal ancestors. I'm proud of my name, like everyone else's it is part of my identity and my heritage.

Hillmanhunter1 Jnr came home from primary school yesterday with an attendance certificate in a name that is a gaelicised version of our surname. There is no Irish version of my surname (unlike perhaps names that were previously anglicised e.g. Murphy/Ó Murchú etc.). The name was made up by someone who, I guess, thought this was appropriate. I don't know if this treatment is reserved for those with an English surname or if the person concerned is also wrestling with the challenges of gaelicising the names of his Polish and Nigerian classmates!

My view is that this is extremely high-handed, and I'm going to let go with both barrels in a letter to the Principal. I'm interested in hearing if others have had this experience and/or if you agree/disagree with me.

If there is no Irish language translation of your surname, then nobody should be making up one for your child! Your child took his/her name from you, and it is for you to bring certainty on this issue. You know, if a teacher, particularly one with a seemingly less than perfect knowledge of Irish, decides to make up a name that sounds "Oirish", that consitutes gross interference IMO. I would bring this matter to the Principal. If the teacher made up a nickname for your child, you'd be offended, so I don't see the difference on this score - and you do sound pretty offended!!

You're completely right to complain and rectify the situation. At the core, I'd be worried about the teacher's knowledge of language... I never did Irish in school as I immigrated after the age of 12, but the Irish teacher never got a surname mis-translated, and certainly knew which Anglo-names remained the same in Irish.

[Gordon Freeman]

I always thought it peculiar why this is done. If your name isn't Gaelic in origin or you're not from a family with an Anglo-Irish name that Gaelicised its surname why change the name at all. If I go to Italy, and my name was Paul Murphy, they wouldn't change it to Paulo Di Murphio. If I went to Spain my name wouldn't change from James Hennessy to Jaime Hennessez, in Holland it wouldn't change from Joe Kelly to Jo Van der Kellyklamp etc etc. Why is it done here. Its ridiculous.

Not at all:

O'Brien = Obregón (Mexico)

Murphy = Morfi (Jamaica)

Kelly = Quelly (France)

O'Neill = Neilsini (Italy)

(de) Lacy = Von Lacy (Count Peter von Lacy, or Pyotr Petrovich Lacy)

Mac Mahon = de Mac-Mahon (Marie Edme Patrice Maurice de Mac-Mahon, 1st Duc de Magenta, Marshal of France )

Québec:::

Aubry = O'Brien

Barrette = Barrett

Bourque = Burke

Guérin = Geary

Mainguy = McGee

Morin = Moran

Riel = O'Reilly

Sylvain = (O) Sullivan

etc. etc.

[readytogo]

Does anyone know when (roughly) most Irish surnames were translated into English?

[stripey cat]

It can come in useful, I'm told, to have some official correspondence using the Irish form of your name (if you habitually use the Anglicised version).

It can be handy when applying for grants, opening bank accounts, registering companies etc to have two versions of your name which you can switch between.

This quite common practice in Ireland of having two versions of the same name is almost completely unheard of in Britain, so leaves room for all sorts of shenanigans when dealing with officialdom over there.

The teacher was doing your child an enormous favour which will come in very useful later in life. You should write a letter of thanks.

[TommyO'Brien]

I have an English surname, my family name has been in Ireland since the Elizabethan plantation. The vast majority of my forebears were of Irish stock but, as is normal, I have the surname of my patrilineal ancestors. I'm proud of my name, like everyone else's it is part of my identity and my heritage.

Hillmanhunter1 Jnr came home from primary school yesterday with an attendance certificate in a name that is a gaelicised version of our surname. There is no Irish version of my surname (unlike perhaps names that were previously anglicised e.g. Murphy/Ó Murchú etc.). The name was made up by someone who, I guess, thought this was appropriate. I don't know if this treatment is reserved for those with an English surname or if the person concerned is also wrestling with the challenges of gaelicising the names of his Polish and Nigerian classmates!

My view is that this is extremely high-handed, and I'm going to let go with both barrels in a letter to the Principal. I'm interested in hearing if others have had this experience and/or if you agree/disagree with me.

A good post. I am a fan of the Irish language and really hate when people bastardise it by trying to come up with makey-up words that are simply English words made to look Irish. It is like the ridiculous Lana Bus or the thankfully shortlived sign that appeared on the Northside in Dublin in the 1970s Centuir an Citié. Even that bastardisation was too much and the Corpo was told to take down that bloody ridiculous sign.

If your name has no Irish equivalent then it has no equivalent, and a phoney one should not be made up. (BTW there is a 6 year old in my nephew's class whose name has been bastardised into Irish as Kilíe - her name is Kylie. Zeeech!)

Actually, come to think of it, de Valera's name was bastardised into de Bhalera at one stage. FFS.

[readytogo]

stripey cat, thanks for that. If only I thought of it when doing exams

[stripey cat]

Does anyone know when (roughly) most Irish surnames were translated into English?

I can't see a link on the internet, but I always understood that in the 16th Century proclamations were issued demanding that all people use only English names in official dealings.

Lists were issued giving English names which could be used as equivalents, and fairly plain generic names were used like Smyth and Browne (note the Elizabethan spelling) rather than the more particular English family names like, I don't know, Worthington or Featherstonehaugh.

So while a lot of us have English sounding names, when you go to Britain you realise they were picking names from a fairly short list for us.

I'm sure one of the articulate and well informed historians of P.ie can fill in the details of dates etc.

[uriah]

A good post. I am a fan of the Irish language and really hate when people bastardise it by trying to come up with makey-up words that are simply English words made to look Irish. It is like the ridiculous Lana Bus or the thankfully shortlived sign that appeared on the Northside in Dublin in the 1970s Centuir an Citié. Even that bastardisation was too much and the Corpo was told to take down that bloody ridiculous sign.

If your name has no Irish equivalent then it has no equivalent, and a phoney one should not be made up. (BTW there is a 6 year old in my nephew's class whose name has been bastardised into Irish as Kilíe - her name is Kylie. Zeeech!)

Actually, come to think of it, de Valera's name was bastardised into de Bhalera at one stage. FFS.

I, too, am a supporter of the Gaeilge and speak it regularly.
However, a person's name should never be changed by another for any reason, even if there is 'an Irish equivalent'. Nobody has that right. My name is my name is my name.....

Amazing the number of people who think the practice is acceptable - even desirable.
Some of them even get angry at people who do not want their names translated into Irish!

Worst of all, some of these fanatics claim to be promoting the Irish language, when their attitudes and behaviour are having the opposite effect.

[The_Big_Fellow]

I have an English surname, my family name has been in Ireland since the Elizabethan plantation. The vast majority of my forebears were of Irish stock but, as is normal, I have the surname of my patrilineal ancestors. I'm proud of my name, like everyone else's it is part of my identity and my heritage.

Hillmanhunter1 Jnr came home from primary school yesterday with an attendance certificate in a name that is a gaelicised version of our surname. There is no Irish version of my surname (unlike perhaps names that were previously anglicised e.g. Murphy/Ó Murchú etc.). The name was made up by someone who, I guess, thought this was appropriate. I don't know if this treatment is reserved for those with an English surname or if the person concerned is also wrestling with the challenges of gaelicising the names of his Polish and Nigerian classmates!

My view is that this is extremely high-handed, and I'm going to let go with both barrels in a letter to the Principal. I'm interested in hearing if others have had this experience and/or if you agree/disagree with me.

Do you not have better things to be doing, than wasting other people's times.