Time to secularise our primary school system.

[sauntersplash]

Well I was once a child who developed, and I was "taught" for over twenty years, I have even "tutored" myself in an academic setting. So I suppose I know about as much about it as anyone.

That might seem a reasonable idea, but it's not really, for much the same reason that people who have had multiple surgeries do not know as much about medicine as their doctors do.

I disagree with this entirely. You are falling prey to the master's discourse. Very specific knowledge and skill sets are required to perform certain technical tasks on objects which we use in our lives. Surgeons, plumbers, pilots utilise such skills/knowledge in the course of their work and until a person acquires (it needn't be "taught" by anyone) a similar amount of knowledge they are excluded from the activity.

Teaching does not fall into this category. Of course teachers would like you to think that it does because they, like everybody else, like to feel that the way they spend their lives is above certain other activities and is worthy of respect and admiration. At the end of the day, teaching is presenting facts to students and hoping they will absorb them. At the end of the day, this is no different to what a television, cd, website or book does.

I know it's hard to believe in our age of "education" but you don't need an expert to tell you how to think about your life or your society.

What makes school and schooling so important to society is not the academic "teaching" that goes on there. It is the indoctrination, enculturation, discipline and investiture into social norms. School is the place where children are taught to be citizens, taught to be liberal democratic (christian) capitalists. This is clearly visible in the increase of "pastoral" activities in primary schools. Teachers are more than happy to take on these roles becasue it increases their status in the wider social community, putting them on a par with Psychologists or similar professions, improving the perception of a job that was once on a par with the local postmaster or parish priest. I see it as unneccessary and unhealthy. School has become the place where the child is seperated into its "caste" before it can even read.

They used to day "knowledge will set you free", and it does. But unfortunately, schools are not in the knowledge business anymore. Schools are strictly in the employee production business these days, and as long as there are toilet cleaners needed in our society there will be schools that do nothing but churn out toilet cleaners.

[manimus]

I know, this is politics.ie. I know, that in politics.ie-land, teachers are sometimes held in roughly the same regard as petty criminals. Other times, people really have a go. But I don't think I've seen before such a disregard for education itself as the following post. It begins subtly enough, at least in comparison to what's coming.

Very specific knowledge and skill sets are required to perform certain technical tasks on objects which we use in our lives. Surgeons, plumbers, pilots utilise such skills/knowledge in the course of their work and until a person acquires (it needn't be "taught" by anyone) a similar amount of knowledge they are excluded from the activity.

Any argument that begins by dismissing medical school for would-be doctors as unnecessary is an argument that stands on shaky ground, ladies and gentlemen. Very shaky ground indeed. Still, let's have a look.

Teaching does not fall into this category. Of course teachers would like you to think that it does because they, like everybody else, like to feel that the way they spend their lives is above certain other activities and is worthy of respect and admiration.

Now we're talking. At least teachers are not to be criticised for their superiority complexes, because everybody else is just the same. And really, it's quite a compliment to teachers to say they have managed to fool the rest of society into believing that education is important, and complicated. A little backhanded, as compliments go, but beggars can't be choosers. Then again, these days, beggars can't be beggars, either.

At the end of the day, teaching is presenting facts to students and hoping they will absorb them. At the end of the day, this is no different to what a television, cd, website or book does.

Ah. So that's why medical school is such a luxury. Well, maybe our good friend sauntersplash is right that teaching is neither important nor complicated, and the vast number of people all over the world who value education have simply been conned by uppity teachers. Or maybe sauntersplash is is wrong; maybe education is about more than the spouting of facts and the crossing of fingers; maybe our esteemed friend simply has a pretty shallow understanding of what "teaching is".

It's a tough call, but I'm willing to stick my neck out on this one. Sauntersplash, my good man (or woman), I salute your self-confidence, and in the spirit of education point you in the general direction of the website of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment. There you can access the entire primary school curriculum, but I recommend you start with the introduction:

The Primary School Curriculum: Introduction provides an overview of the curriculum for children in primary schools from junior infants to sixth class. It explains how the curriculum is presented for the different levels and explains the importance of integration and the development of the child in all dimensions of his or her life – spiritual, moral, cognitive, emotional, imaginative, aesthetic, social and physical.

Chapter 1 sets out the aims, principles and defining features of the curriculum for primary schools.

Chapter 2 looks at children and learning and identifies the principles of learning. The role of the teacher, the role of the parent, the role of management and the school within the local community are explored.

Chapter 3 focuses on key issues in primary education, for example quality in education, children with special needs, literacy and numeracy, a sense of Irish identity and the Irish language, the spiritual dimension, the European and global dimensions, equality and fairness of access, science education, and ICT. It also highlights early childhood education, the transition from primary to post-primary and life-long learning.

Chapter 4 explores the specific aims and general objectives of the curriculum.

Chapter 5 gives details of the structure of the curriculum and includes an overview of the curriculum areas and the importance of the holistic development of the child.

Chapter 6 provides an explanation of curriculum implementation and time allocation in the curriculum.

Then, just when you thought Jaws was about to swallow you whole, having first chewed on your brain, it actually is safe to get back in the water. Kind of. Briefly.

I know it's hard to believe in our age of "education" but you don't need an expert to tell you how to think about your life or your society.

Well, I would just about agree with that. If you had said, "you don't need an expert to tell you what to think about your life or society", I'd be with you 100%. As it is, I feel that an expert in how to think, such as a philospher, would be worth listening to.

What makes school and schooling so important to society is not the academic "teaching" that goes on there. It is the indoctrination, enculturation, discipline and investiture into social norms. School is the place where children are taught to be citizens, taught to be liberal democratic (christian) capitalists.

Yes, education bad, got it.

This is clearly visible in the increase of "pastoral" activities in primary schools. Teachers are more than happy to take on these roles becasue it increases their status in the wider social community, putting them on a par with Psychologists or similar professions, improving the perception of a job that was once on a par with the local postmaster or parish priest.

It's kind of nice to find someone who thinks teachers are well-perceived these days, but then you have to go and spoil it by harking back to the good old days, when teachers were looked down on as much as the parish priest!

I see it as unneccessary and unhealthy. School has become the place where the child is seperated into its "caste" before it can even read.

They used to day "knowledge will set you free", and it does. But unfortunately, schools are not in the knowledge business anymore. Schools are strictly in the employee production business these days, and as long as there are toilet cleaners needed in our society there will be schools that do nothing but churn out toilet cleaners.

We don't need schools to teach our surgeons how to remove a brain tumour without killing the patient, but do we need schools to teach someone how to clean a toilet. So you see, ladies and gentlemen, it is as I told you. From shaky ground to none at all in one fell post. I thank you.

[goatstoe]

I don't know if this article has been posted on P.ie yet, it's a couple of weeks old but I just came across it the other day. As one of the reponses to the article in question says: "this (article) really exposes the lie propagated by many religiously-minded commentators and that there is no alternative to the traditional religious brand of ethics.". A good article well worth a read for those interested in this issue.

Educating free minds only route to true ethics - The Irish Times - Wed, Feb 24, 2010

[MichaelR]

You can send your child to a non-religious school if you wish.

Mine go to the local Catholic school and I am very happy with the ethos being taught.

It is interesting that the young people (18-24) in the above survey were most favourable (along with pensioners) of the churches retaining control of their schools.

The problem is that the option of a non-religious school often does not exist. ET schools are *heavily* overbooked. And even most (though not all) Church of Ireland schools are overbooked. This may not be the case in Dublin but not everyone lives in Dublin.

[Thranduil]

If a movement of the people of Ireland comes forward and demands it then we should listen to them, the Irish Times on the other hand is just a corporation, just as canvassing opinion on this website signifies little so the opinions of a very, very thin wafer of opinion at a newspaper does signify little also.

Was quite satisfied with the education i received, indeed the Irish have always been noted for the excellent standard of education they received - even during the dark economic days of the early to mid 20thCentury and the Catholic Church are to be commended for that. I believe the Irish Times has an agenda when it comes to the shaping Ireland's young minds but i mistrust the agenda and i don't trust the periodical itself, it was not long ago that their board was classifying Irish Catholics as 'white n$$$$s' while the history of the paper is Protestant and Unionist - i hardly feel they are well placed to dictate how Irish Catholic children should be educated. The definition of an elite is one who believes he has the right to instruct and oversee a larger group of people, imprinting upon them his beliefs (on the basis that he knows better than they or that he is more powerful) - at least whenever the RCC was sermonising they were Catholics sermonising to Catholics, when we were colonised by Britain our children were shut out of education and then later they were taught a British version of history and we must never allow ourselves to be dictated to in that way again. So i would argue that if there is no complaint from parents then leave things the way they are until there is, if the Irish Times doesn't like that then let them get busy persuading parents and organising opposition to mount a grassroots attack on the status quo (Good luck to them, if we can't be bothered to organise one against NAMA they haven't much hope).

On the issues of ethics the children should be educated in accordance with the wishes of the parents, if there is a significant grassroots movement demanding that certain ideologies are pushed in class (the kinds of beliefs that the IT would approve of) then it is fair and right that we take account of their beliefs but until then nobody is really complaining except a small unrepresentative group.

[goatstoe]

If a movement of the people of Ireland comes forward and demands it then we should listen to them, the Irish Times on the other hand is just a corporation, just as canvassing opinion on this website signifies little so the opinions of a very, very thin wafer of opinion at a newspaper does signify little also.

Was quite satisfied with the education i received, indeed the Irish have always been noted for the excellent standard of education they received - even during the dark economic days of the early to mid 20thCentury and the Catholic Church are to be commended for that. I believe the Irish Times has an agenda when it comes to the shaping Ireland's young minds but i mistrust the agenda and i don't trust the periodical itself, it was not long ago that their board was classifying Irish Catholics as 'white n$$$$s' while the history of the paper is Protestant and Unionist - i hardly feel they are well placed to dictate how Irish Catholic children should be educated. The definition of an elite is one who believes he has the right to instruct and oversee a larger group of people, imprinting upon them his beliefs (on the basis that he knows better than they or that he is more powerful) - at least whenever the RCC was sermonising they were Catholics sermonising to Catholics, when we were colonised by Britain our children were shut out of education and then later they were taught a British version of history and we must never allow ourselves to be dictated to in that way again. So i would argue that if there is no complaint from parents then leave things the way they are until there is, if the Irish Times doesn't like that then let them get busy persuading parents and organising opposition to mount a grassroots attack on the status quo (Good luck to them, if we can't be bothered to organise one against NAMA they haven't much hope).

On the issues of ethics the children should be educated in accordance with the wishes of the parents, if there is a significant grassroots movement demanding that certain ideologies are pushed in class (the kinds of beliefs that the IT would approve of) then it is fair and right that we take account of their beliefs but until then nobody is really complaining except a small unrepresentative group.

I'm of the opinion that there is a groundswell of views among parents that are unhappy with the status quo. I reckon that a smart political party could get some votes for themselves by tapping into it and forming a coherent policy around educational reform. Lets face it the only time a lot of parents set foot inside a church these days is when their kids are receiving first communion or confirmation. Many parents are busy and don't have time to be organising a movement calling for a reduction of catholic teaching or rendering preparation for sacraments extra curricular for example. If given the option to divert more time to other subjects and also be more ecumenical (as Fr. Jack would say) on other religious education, I believe a lot of parents would be in favour of that. Anyway just leaving things the way they are is hardly an answer. Our education system like everything else should be subject to evolution and change to reflect the changing nature of society and modern peoples belief systems.

[MichaelR]

it was not long ago that their board was classifying Irish Catholics as 'white n$$$$s'

Excuse me but that is just plain wrong. The "white n$$$r" quote was about Protestants who supposedly took the wrong side regarding the Troubles. And the speaker was NOT successful in removing Gageby (the Editor at the time, a Belfast Protestant), at whom the quote was directed.

while the history of the paper is Protestant and Unionist - i hardly feel they are well placed to dictate how Irish Catholic children should be educated.

At least they have no link of common interest with the kiddie fiddlers.

if the Irish Times doesn't like that then let them get busy persuading parents and organising opposition to mount a grassroots attack on the status quo

No grassroots can do much without the property to run an ET school on.

[Thranduil]

Excuse me but that is just plain wrong. The "white n$$$r" quote was about Protestants who supposedly took the wrong side regarding the Troubles. And the speaker was NOT successful in removing Gageby (the Editor at the time, a Belfast Protestant), at whom the quote was directed.

True thanks for the correction, it turns out that Gageby was called a white N%%%%r because he went against McDowell's preferred narrative on Northern Ireland that was pro-British - so it's actually worse - Gageby is called a white N or a traitor to his 'white' Protestant group by leaning more towards the Irish Nationalist Catholic position - therefore the Irish Nationalist Catholic position was simply regarded as simply a N%%%%r position without the qualification of 'white', the 'white' was only included to signify that Gageby was a Protestant like McDowell.

At least they have no link of common interest with the kiddie fiddlers.

That we know of.

I'm of the opinion that there is a groundswell of views among parents that are unhappy with the status quo. I reckon that a smart political party could get some votes for themselves by tapping into it and forming a coherent policy around educational reform. Lets face it the only time a lot of parents set foot inside a church these days is when their kids are receiving first communion or confirmation.

It doesn't matter, there should be no change unless the movement for change is initialised by the parents - saying you are 'of the opinion' that there is support is like what the IT is doing, this is a corporation not an eye and an ear into every home in Ireland. Starting a party about it is a healthy way to gauge public opinion and would certainly qualify as a barometer (particularly if it was a one-issue party) of people's opinions on this subject in Ireland.

Anyway just leaving things the way they are is hardly an answer. Our education system like everything else should be subject to evolution and change to reflect the changing nature of society and modern peoples belief systems.

The issues of ethics and right/wrong are mostly timeless and don't need constant updating, exceptions could exist, such as gays objecting to some religious teachings and i can certainly understand those objections. Normal subjects like mathematics, science and English etc would still be taught the same way in a faith school as in a secular school, they are updated everywhere as and how required... In fact i don't think the evolution/creationism issue even comes up in Catholic schools - i believe even the Pope discussed the big bang with Stephen Hawking when he visited!

[ellie08]

Ed together is multi denominational. my problem with them is this: They are ....'Democratically run with active participation by parents in the daily life of the school, whilst positively affirming the professional role of the teachers". The problem there is there'll be a few parents with too much to say and too much time on their hands interrupting the school day and other parents who may not get a say because they are working full time and haven't the opportunity to have their say. From what I can see of schools, there's always a group of housewives who 'rule the roost'.
The state schools should be non denominational and anyone who wants their kids to learn religion should do it after school.

[Sailor]

True thanks for the correction, it turns out that Gageby was called a white N%%%%r because he went against McDowell's preferred narrative on Northern Ireland that was pro-British - so it's actually worse - Gageby is called a white N or a traitor to his 'white' Protestant group by leaning more towards the Irish Nationalist Catholic position - therefore the Irish Nationalist Catholic position was simply regarded as simply a N%%%%r position without the qualification of 'white', the 'white' was only included to signify that Gageby was a Protestant like McDowell.



That we know of.



It doesn't matter, there should be no change unless the movement for change is initialised by the parents - saying you are 'of the opinion' that there is support is like what the IT is doing, this is a corporation not an eye and an ear into every home in Ireland. Starting a party about it is a healthy way to gauge public opinion and would certainly qualify as a barometer (particularly if it was a one-issue party) of people's opinions on this subject in Ireland.



The issues of ethics and right/wrong are mostly timeless and don't need constant updating, exceptions could exist, such as gays objecting to some religious teachings and i can certainly understand those objections. Normal subjects like mathematics, science and English etc would still be taught the same way in a faith school as in a secular school, they are updated everywhere as and how required... In fact i don't think the evolution/creationism issue even comes up in Catholic schools - i believe even the Pope discussed the big bang with Stephen Hawking when he visited!

Only because the Big Bang is consistent with religious views in that it provides for a beginning. Now, if he had really gotten into something like Hawking Radiation there woulda been sparks flying (no pun intended)