Time to secularise our primary school system.

[Cato]

We went over all this on that long thread where the OP referred to Dick Spicer (? I think). Couldn't find it just now.

Anyway, in a nutshell: plenty still want rel ed. and schools own buildings; even if schools let (say) 50% of school buildings go, mass transmigration of school cohorts to exclusively non-denom or Catholic means logistical chaos and endless haggling over who does the moving; purchase of property near schools a factor in all this. Etc. etc. etc.

In short, divisive and extremely difficult. I do see a gradual and probably quite profound change, rather than a shake-up. So I agree with goatstoe and others up to a point.

Thanks for that but it doesn't answer my question; why would having the religious indoctrination take place outside regular school hours be such a bad thing for religious believers. Those who want their children to be so indoctrinated would still get that and the quality and effectiveness of the indoctrination would probably be better.

[A Voice]

Thanks for that but it doesn't answer my question; why would having the religious indoctrination take place outside regular school hours be such a bad thing for religious believers. Those who want their children to be so indoctrinated would still get that and the quality and effectiveness of the indoctrination would probably be better.

Ah, they would just feel they were being shunted aside to accommodate the concerns of non-believers, I suppose. And the shool day is long enough etc. Given that the schools are Church property, it would be a bitter pill to swallow.

That was awfully big of you on the other thread btw! Kudos.

[Earnest]

Well that is part of the compromise. The religious events as part of the school year I said should be optional. As to the religious imagery: well we'd probably have to compromise there and let them keep them so that they could still say that the school is a particular ethos.

It's exactly the compromise that I disagree with. Either have a Catholic school or a non-denominational one. If Catholic parents want their children to go to a Catholic school, good luck to them. But there must be a genuine alternative.

[Cato]

It's exactly the compromise that I disagree with. Either have a Catholic school or a non-denominational one. If Catholic parents want their children to go to a Catholic school, good luck to them. But there must be a genuine alternative.

I would support the setting up of more non-denominational schools and indeed I note with interest that the Catholic Church is willing to look at transferring patronage of some of their schools for that purpose.

But my issue is that the state should not endow any religion. The state should be responsible to see that every child receive an appropriate education and that they leave primary school with the ability to read, write and to do simple arithmetic. With those two things in mind I think that religious indoctrination should be removed from the regular school day, but I'm willing to compromise from a 100% secularist position to find a way for schools to keep their ethos while allowing a high degree of secularization.

[Earnest]

I would support the setting up of more non-denominational schools and indeed I note with interest that the Catholic Church is willing to look at transferring patronage of some of their schools for that purpose.

But my issue is that the state should not endow any religion. The state should be responsible to see that every child receive an appropriate education and that they leave primary school with the ability to read, write and to do simple arithmetic. With those two things in mind I think that religious indoctrination should be removed from the regular school day, but I'm willing to compromise from a 100% secularist position to find a way for schools to keep their ethos while allowing a high degree of secularization.

Can you not see that having a school with a Catholic ethos which everyone is expected to attend is an endowment of the Catholic religion? A "high degree of secularization" reminds me of Honor Tracy's alleged sermon "What we have to do, my dear brethren, is stay on the straight and narrow path between right and wrong".

[corelli]

I would support the setting up of more non-denominational schools and indeed I note with interest that the Catholic Church is willing to look at transferring patronage of some of their schools for that purpose.

But my issue is that the state should not endow any religion. The state should be responsible to see that every child receive an appropriate education and that they leave primary school with the ability to read, write and to do simple arithmetic. With those two things in mind I think that religious indoctrination should be removed from the regular school day, but I'm willing to compromise from a 100% secularist position to find a way for schools to keep their ethos while allowing a high degree of secularization.

But the Constitution has been interpreted, in The Campaign to Separate Church and State V. The Minister for Education, Ireland and the AG, as allowing endowing of religion specifically in relation to education/schools.

[Gimpanzee]

Speech By Archbishop Brady on the topic of the church and schools. Just reading it now. Seems to get to this issue about 1/4 the way down the doc.

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2010...eech/index.pdf

What has been notable is the constructive and respectful atmosphere within
which the debate has been framed. A new maturity has entered the debate. In all but a
few instances, the easy caricatures of the past have faded. The presumption that the
Catholic Church wants to control as many schools as it can, irrespective of parental
demands, is increasingly seen to be unfounded.

Perhaps the most promising thing is the acceptance that there is a problem with the dominance of the church in schools:

...
Just as it is right to question the over-provision of Catholic schools relative to perceived demand, it is also right to ask why of all the newly built schools in areas of population growth in Ireland in recent years, very few are Catholic?

And on the Ryan/Murphy reports and the IT survey:

One of the curious things about the recent Ipsos/MRBI poll in The Irish Times was that in
suggesting that a majority of the public wants the Catholic Church to give up its role in
the management of primary schools there was no clear indication as to their preferred
alternative. If the editorial comment on the poll is right then a key factor in the result
was the completely justified anger with Bishops and Religious Orders over the findings of
the Ryan and Murphy reports. But what then of the implications of the less publicised but
very significant criticisms of state-run organisations in the same reports?
There is a real challenge here for the new Catholic Schools Partnership. It is possible
than many people are assessing their support for Catholic Church involvement in
education, not on the basis of their own commitment to Catholic faith, but out of an
outdated and stereotypical view of a Catholic school. It was interesting that in the Ipsos/
MRBI poll, younger people tended to have a more positive attitude to the involvement of
Church than those in middle-age.
One possible reason for this may be that most young people attending Catholic schools
today have a very positive experience of the Catholic ethos and atmosphere of their
school. The emphasis on the love of God for every person, the importance of concern
and respect for others, the experience of reflective prayer and participation in the liturgy
mean the atmosphere of Catholic schools are a far cry from what they were even twenty
or thirty years ago. The cold and disturbing images of Catholic education evoked by the
Ryan Report could not be in more stark contrast to the supportive and positive
atmosphere of Catholic schools today.

Overall, it seems like a fairly reasonable starting point for negotiation. The likes of Brady is in a difficult position - probably with more to fear from the fundies who many fear would take control of many of the Catholic schools if reform opened the way to them.

It looks like its game on.

[Cato]

In an article (link below) in today's Irish Times, Fintan O'Toole, reveals that not only do the Xian churches have a strangle hold over our children's education but that in order to train as a primary school teacher here one must learn how to indoctrinate children and pass exams in Xian doctrine. It is impossible in this country for any non-Xian person to train and qualify as a primary school teacher unless they partake in superstitious nonsense.

Republic, in name only.

Why must agnostics be obliged to teach faith? - The Irish Times - Tue, Feb 02, 2010

[johnfás]

An obvious omission has emerged in much of this talk concerning the role of the churches in education – that is parental choice. The emphasis of Article 42 of the Constitution is not of any particular type of patronage, but rather of parents being best placed to make educational choices for their children, and the role of the State in supporting those choices insofar as possible.

There is no doubt that the State has failed in supporting that choice. However, there remains a sizeable number of citizens who desire that their children should attend a school with a religious ethos. It would therefore seem obvious that the best way of upholding the values of our Constitution is for the State to engage with the various actors in our education system to ensure that choice is now offered. This seems the path the Government is now tentatively stepping towards.

Zero-sum arguments on both sides – either in support of the maintenance of an inequitable status quo, or in support of a system which goes in the reverse and replaces one marginalised section of our society with another are neither helpful nor desirable.

It is interesting to note that many of the successful western democracies which we are often told we should be emulating, such as Canada, The Netherlands and Australia provide public funding to schools of both religious and secular ethos. In today's Irish Times, it was highlighted that even in France, that great republic, public financial support is given to faith based schools.

There is space in our society for choice.

[sandar]

I think all schoools should be secularised except those which wish to be fee paying and outside the sysyetm