Time to secularise our primary school system.

[Gordon Freeman]

Those results are in keeping with other polls on the subject in recent years.
Aggressive Secularist

All of doubtful validity.

Besides, it's quite irrelevant. Will the Church of Ireland 'surrender' control of it's 190 primary schools? No? Well then, why would the Catholic Church? How do you propose the side step this issue?

[goatstoe]

A compromise solution is to allow schools to keep their religious/non-denominational/secular ethos but remove the religious indoctrination from the regular school day and have it as an optional, extracurricular activity after school hours. I would even be happy for the state to contribute towards the funding for these classes. That way the regular school day is secular in character but religious indoctrination is still available to those who desire it.

I can agree with this. I think that the teaching/indocrination should probably be done by a specialist, like a priest or a nun or even a lay person, after hours if necessary. The regular teacher should have no religious duties. On the otherhand I think we could have children thought a little about all world religions including atheism/materialism, taught objectively and without any partiality towards the catholicism of the church. Or perhaps this should be a subject for the secondary schools.

I too would be happy with such an arrangement we seem to be reaching a strong consensus on this thread. At the risk of repeating myself, I firmly believe that any political party that proposes an educational policy along the lines outlined in the above two quotes would be onto a winner.

[nbgb]

All of doubtful validity.

Besides, it's quite irrelevant. Will the Church of Ireland 'surrender' control of it's 190 primary schools? No? Well then, why would the Catholic Church? How do you propose the side step this issue?

"all of doubtful validity" - because they don't agree with your opinion or can you actually prove this?

one way of addressing the balance would be to secularize any school on dept of education owned land or whose building was funded by dept - that's probably bring the number of schools not under denominational control to a more realistic level and then what about school property to the value of whatever is left to be paid from the Woods deal ideaaly targetting at least one per sizeable town for a good geographical spread and to promote true choice

[theObserver@hotmail.com]

Just replace religious classes with a good philosophy and critical thinking course. Teach them how to think, not what to think.

[Mercurial]

But for the believer its more than just a belief, its a state of being, which is inseparable to their core identity.Like being of being from a particular country.

I think the problem here is the relagtion of religion to being merely just a "belief", like a football supporters club, which has no real relevance public life. While it might be true for some people born in the faith, it is not true to religious who take their religion serious.

But it imay be my belief that the resurrection of Christianity in Ireland is vital to the re-establishment of an ethical and fair state, by redveloping community and such. That might be why I support them in the schools. Now you can call that "belief" mumbo jumbo, but you cannot call Christianity "Mumbo Jumbo" without immediately losing all credibility a a serious debator. You keep that for the privacy of your own home!

I don't see why religious beliefs should be afforded privileged status simply because they are very deeply felt. You should not expect to bring such beliefs into the political sphere and not be ridiculed for attempting to regulate people's conduct according to your beliefs about the supernatural, no matter how dearly held those beliefs are.

[theObserver@hotmail.com]

"I can agree with this. I think that the teaching/indocrination should probably be done by a specialist, like a priest or a nun or even a lay person, after hours if necessary. The regular teacher should have no religious duties. On the otherhand I think we could have children thought a little about all world religions including atheism/materialism, taught objectively and without any partiality towards the catholicism of the church. Or perhaps this should be a subject for the secondary schools.

The second approach leads to wishy washy cultural relativism. If a student asks "But Sir, is Islam correct when it claims Jesus was just another in the long line of prophets and that the bible was distorted by the power hungry ?", the only safe answer a teacher can give without pissing somebody off is : "Well that's their culture." or "That's what they believe."

[Cato]

What debt, eh?

Well, you're rather coy about the "vast millions" in man hours spent by clergy in the education of the children of the nation, often unpaid, until the education acts of the latter part of the 20th century. Relatives of mine taught in convents and schools across the country which offered a subsidized schooling for the lower middle class and poor in Ireland when the Governments of the day (both F.F. and F.G./Labour) were either unwilling or unable to build schools for themselves.

I am rather amused by this claim often made by lefties, "our funds..tax...our schools". Land and funds for schools were raised by dioceses and Holy Orders and from amongst the faithful. Bachelor farmers (or spinsters) donated their land to the Church and it was upon this property that Church institutions were built (or, with which, upon realization of their value on the open market). The State didn't spend very much on schools until the late end of the 20th century.

Throughout the 20th century alone, the Church has comprised hundreds of thousands of clergy that have educated literally millions of children. The number of abusers amongst this figure is tiny, almost infinitesimally small. The figure likely awarded to victims is very large but the monetary value of the Church's contribution to education, health and other areas is almost incalculably large that only a rabid ideologue of a thick 'tardish disposition would belittle it.

I'll start by quoting my compromise solution that I mentioned earlier. This would be my preferred solution to the state taking over church property.

A compromise solution is to allow schools to keep their religious/non-denominational/secular ethos but remove the religious indoctrination from the regular school day and have it as an optional, extracurricular activity after school hours. I would even be happy for the state to contribute towards the funding for these classes. That way the regular school day is secular in character but religious indoctrination is still available to those who desire it.

[Mercurial]

The second approach leads to wishy washy cultural relativism. If a student asks "But Sir, is Islam correct when it claims Jesus was just another in the long line of prophets and that the bible was distorted by the power hungry ?", the only safe answer a teacher can give without pissing somebody off is : "Well that's their culture." or "That's what they believe."

And what's wrong with the second answer?

[nbgb]

The second approach leads to wishy washy cultural relativism. If a student asks "But Sir, is Islam correct when it claims Jesus was just another in the long line of prophets and that the bible was distorted by the power hungry ?", the only safe answer a teacher can give without pissing somebody off is : "Well that's their culture." or "That's what they believe."

well I'd take "that's what they believe" any day over the absolutism of doctrine (of any flavour) in a class room where there are children of many faiths and none.

[The Underdog]

Certainly not. I have a feeling that we would not see entirely eye-to-eye with regards to what should count as bigotry, however.

It's irrelevant how you or I define bigotry, its already well defined.

Having once lived in the six counties for a considerable period of time, unfortunately I have an all too acute understanding of what is bigotry, and more importantly, what it leads to in any society if left unchecked.

One thing is for sure, a bigot should not be allowed to define what is or is not bigotry.

So for the people, on both sides, talking like bigots on this thread . . . . in fairness some may not even realise they are talking like bigots . . .

Bigotry

Bigotry Definition | Definition of Bigotry at Dictionary.com

1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

Synonyms:
1. narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination.