Time to secularise our primary school system.

[Warrior]

Incitement to hatred? Cop yourself on. It's freedom of expression.
I no more have to 'respect' people who wish to use public funds to propogate irrational superstition than I do those who who believe that we are about to be beamed up to the planet Zog.

So you dont respect the other debator?

As for misuing funds, you can be sure that I think it is right and proper to do a cost/benefit analysis of keeping the religious schools. I was of the impression that it actually saved the tax payer. If it doesnt then, I agree, the state should not fund religion, unless of course the people themselves want to establish a state religion (which I doubt at this time).

As it happens many people do not want to see public funds used for a variety of things, some would view as useless or even irrational, such as the irish language, the office of the president, the senate, various tax break etc etc.
There is something about religion however especially christianity, that inspires an almost demonic revulsion from its detractors which is entirely out of proportion to its alleged failings. Thats one thing I can never understand, especially when it comes from otherwise normal people

[FrankSpeaks]

I freely admit I don't have the stomach to read more than the most recent few pages of this thread, so I apologise if others have already made the following points:

There are approximately 20 hours of secular instruction per week in primary schools. Religion is allocated a further 2.5 hours per week in primary schools, or just over 10% of the total time spent teaching. That is quite a bit more time than most subjects get, including science (1 hour) and PE (1 hour), and in fact only English (4 hours), Irish (3.5 hours) and maths (3 hours) get more time than religion; "Sacrament" classes (communion and confirmation) obviously spend even more time on religion.

So while pupils enjoy about 20% more time with their teacher in Irish primary schools than the EU average, 2.5 hours per week for religion is still a lot of time.

IMHO a lot of wasted time.

[Cato]

If only it were that simple. If there were no question "why we exist at all?" then maybe you might have a point, but it does. So what came before the big bang? Why did it occurr?

In a sense it does not matter what came before the Big Bang as it has no relevance for us now, as all information is destroyed in a singularity such as the one that immediately superseded the Big Bang.

I hadnt noticed. Ouch!
(checks wiki : In the scientific method, Occam's razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic, and certainly not a scientific result.) Is that ok?
And even still, the atheistic universe creation theory (an infinity of universes etc) still depends on a prime mover, so now you've cut yourself as well!

The arguments for god that postulate him as the prime mover depend upon the supposed impossibility of a series having no first term. However, maths teaches us that there is no such impossibility; the series of negative integers ending with minus one is an instance to the contrary. On that point your argument fails. Also while ascribe 'self-causation' to god? Why not simplify things and ascribe 'self-causation' to matter itself and thereby simplify the explanation for the universe and thereby avoid cutting oneself on Ocham's Razor?

By the way the theory of an infinity of universes is not 'the' atheistic universe creation theory.

Why is it meaningless to admit to not being able to understand infinity or eternity? Regarding the revelaved nature of God, we are told that He is eternal, and that he is the Prime Mover, and finally that He is not material. So He is extra-universal. These are simple things that will of course never be proved if we decide to try and judge all this as we would in a court of law (as Hume, Dawkins and presumably you would). While understandable it is a very limited approach.

I admit no supernatural reality, so well leave this point alone.

Only what our physical memories and physical senses can understand. We may be re-incarnated, but then again we would never know as our memories which are based on neuron so we, from a public point of view discount it. It doesnt discount it from being true though. I think all religions I know rejoice in existance and do not contemplate death as much as it would seem. The injunction from our Lord is to "go Forth and Multiply". Happy that paradise awaits, why worry! Live every minute of every day, says Buddha.

There is no evidence for life after death or for reincarnation. All such talk is groundless.

In our materialist world people live for the future and then they worry about it. I find that quite sad actually.

I agree. I'm a Stoic (an ethical system but not a religious one) so I live for the day.

I´ve really got better things to do then discuss stuff like this or politics but I have had a certain experience myself and that is perhaps something which is causing me to discuss such subjects here and now, but I hope to cut loose from here again, as I slowly digest what has happened to me.
You are however to be commended for always standing by the truth, and what you know in your conscience to be true - which is more than I can say about some of the other posters around here!

It is always good to discuss matters. It can help to clarify and change one's views. I thank you for your compliments.

[Half Nelson]

Catholic Church 'should give up control of primary schools' - The Irish Times - Mon, Jan 25, 2010

Now that all the furore about clerical child abuse and the utter failure of the church authorities to manage the issue has died down, it is time for this state to take control of our schools. This is not an anti-church thread - I am not really interested in what the church does. This is simply a call to parents throughout Ireland to insist on the secularization of our schools. When I went to primary school myself I remember well that at least two years in a child's school years were dominated by religous doctrine for communion and confirmation. The rest of the years also had a strong presence of religous (catholic) doctrine. It is my contention that valuable school time in our kids lives have been and continue to be dominated by religion and in particular catholic education activities. Religion should be a subject in our schools but religous doctrine and preparation for sacrements etc. should be extra curricular.

As yet no political party leader has touched this subject (secularization of our schools). I would encourage them to think about taking up the issue and make it an election issue. I am convinced there is an appetite for change among parents in Ireland on this matter.

I haven't read all of this thread but my first reaction, on reading the poll, was to wonder why the interviewees weren't asked if they would be willing to pay extra taxes in order to fund the purchase of the school sites. I know of a parish, which has recently paid out well over a hundred thousand to provide a site for a much-needed school. The same story is replicated all over the country.
Let the State have its schools but let it spread the burden equitably and not prey on the contributions of hard-working Catholics.
And let the non-contributors, who have benefited from the generosity of others, at least acknowledge their debt.

[Cato]

I haven't read all of this thread but my first reaction, on reading the poll, was to wonder why the interviewees weren't asked if they would be willing to pay extra taxes in order to fund the purchase of the school sites. I know of a parish, which has recently paid out well over a hundred thousand to provide a site for a much-needed school. The same story is replicated all over the country.
Let the State have its schools but let it spread the burden equitably and not prey on the contributions of hard-working Catholics.
And let the non-contributors, who have benefited from the generosity of others, at least acknowledge their debt.

We could offset the cost of the sites against the vast millions paid out by the state to compensate the victims of clerical and religious child abuse.

When balanced off with that I ask you, "what debt?"

[Half Nelson]

We could offset the cost of the sites against the vast millions paid out by the state to compensate the victims of clerical and religious child abuse.

When balanced off with that I ask you, "what debt?"

What a load of nonsense. I'm surprised at you. Are you seriously blaming ordinary Catholics for the child abuse scandals, in which offices of the State colluded, or is this a desperate, flailing attempt to justify a landgrab by the State?

I know there are similarities but this isn't Zimbabwe...yet.

[Cato]

What a load of nonsense. I'm surprised at you. Are you seriously blaming ordinary Catholics for the child abuse scandals, in which offices of the State colluded, or is this a desperate, flailing attempt to justify a landgrab by the State?

I know there are similarities but this isn't Zimbabwe...yet.

Easy there chief. While ordinary Catholic's may have paid through their contributions towards the property of the church it is formally the property of the institutional church and should be looked at as a way to increase the choice of schools for parents.

I have never blamed ordinary Catholics for the abuse that occurred and shame on you for suggesting that I did. I do, however, sometimes wonder why ordinary Catholics continue to contribute money to a still unreformed institutional church and one that has not yet seen fit in its entirety to face up to the abuse that occurred.

[Gordon Freeman]

It'll never happen. One simple reason: Protestant schools.

Protestants don't want to give up their schools (why should they?) If the Protestants me keep their schools (what few schools of theirs that continue to exist), why should Catholics give up theirs?

The poll in the Irish Times today is not credible really. The Irish Times has been engaged in a letter-writing campaign concerning these issues for months now, I'm fairly sure Fintan O'Toole made up the results of the 'poll' himself, it's an issue close to his heart. What do people really think is going to happen? If they whinge and moan as much as they like, the Catholic Church will give in? Not likely.

[imokyrok]

It'll never happen. One simple reason: Protestant schools.

Protestants don't want to give up their schools (why should they?) If the Protestants me keep their schools (what few schools of theirs that continue to exist), why should Catholics give up theirs?

The poll in the Irish Times today is not credible really. The Irish Times has been engaged in a letter-writing campaign concerning these issues for months now, I'm fairly sure Fintan O'Toole made up the results of the 'poll' himself, it's an issue close to his heart. What do people really think is going to happen? If they whinge and moan as much as they like, the Catholic Church will give in? Not likely.

Those results are in keeping with other polls on the subject in recent years.
http://www.aggressive-secularist.com/

[Gordon Freeman]

We could offset the cost of the sites against the vast millions paid out by the state to compensate the victims of clerical and religious child abuse.

When balanced off with that I ask you, "what debt?"

What debt, eh?

Well, you're rather coy about the "vast millions" in man hours spent by clergy in the education of the children of the nation, often unpaid, until the education acts of the latter part of the 20th century. Relatives of mine taught in convents and schools across the country which offered a subsidized schooling for the lower middle class and poor in Ireland when the Governments of the day (both F.F. and F.G./Labour) were either unwilling or unable to build schools for themselves.

I am rather amused by this claim often made by lefties, "our funds..tax...our schools". Land and funds for schools were raised by dioceses and Holy Orders and from amongst the faithful. Bachelor farmers (or spinsters) donated their land to the Church and it was upon this property that Church institutions were built (or, with which, upon realization of their value on the open market). The State didn't spend very much on schools until the late end of the 20th century.

Throughout the 20th century alone, the Church has comprised hundreds of thousands of clergy that have educated literally millions of children. The number of abusers amongst this figure is tiny, almost infinitesimally small. The figure likely awarded to victims is very large but the monetary value of the Church's contribution to education, health and other areas is almost incalculably large that only a rabid ideologue of a thick 'tardish disposition would belittle it.