Yes, there is more to this than meets the eye. It may not be as fanciful as my previous post,Originally Posted by slx
but this may be the manifestation of something going on in the background. Of course, it might be just as it says, future cutbacks across many sectors may look like this and expect more of the same.
Whats with "protestant" or "catholic" education? Is algebra different for taiges, is french different for prods?
The only logical approach is non-denominational, non-sectarian education.
That particular case concerned the compulsory redeployment of teachers. In a nutshell, the State requires that schools are responsible for the acts of their teachers (who are employed by the school but paid by the state). This is a particularly important point given the fact that the State has avoided liability in respect of abuse by teachers in certain industrial schools on the basis that the abusers were employees of the school rather than the State. The State therefore wanted to impose liability on a school for the acts of staff but to mandate that a school must take a member of staff - that they must be parachuted in without the right to interview to ensure their suitability to the school both in terms of ethos and in terms of issues such as child protection. The case was eventually withdrawn when the Department ceded ground when it became blatantly obvious that you can't both i) impose liability on a school and then ii) provide no discretion to the school on who they employ.
I have no idea whether the Department is now trying to punish these schools, I would certainly hope not. However, what I think is happening is that the State is simply trying to cut costs. The Protestant community was an easy target and one which they believed they could discriminate against without anybody much caring. On that basis I would really encourage everybody here, no matter what their belief or community to oppose these cuts. They are based, as I said above, not on a desire to create a better education system but to limit choice in a crude manner. The Protestant community is not looking for an exemption from eduction cuts, what it is looking for is an equality across education cuts, if there are to be such cuts. The communities across this island have different needs and the provision of a system of pluralised education has been dynamic in order to give effect to that pluralism up to now. Everybody will suffer if that is done away with, including those who would like to see more non denominational schools and purely secular schools develop.
It should also be noted that the Protestant Churches have made numerous submissions to the State on the matter since the last budget, despite the Minister maintaining otherwise in the Dáil. There is also a certain campaign on the part of the Minister to confuse the issue at hand, by intentionally releasing misleading and misconstrued data. Finally, it should be noted, that it was the Minister who refused to meet representatives of those affected by these cuts for months after the budget. He chose rather, one can only assume in an attempt to sectarianise the matter, to invite representatives of the Orange Order in the North to come and discuss views. I find such an invitation entirely offensive, what business has the Orange Order got in representing the position of parents in this State? None, is the answer. It was an attempt to blur the issues on the part of the Minister, one which has been thankfully shown up for what it is with the welcome, though unsurprising, intervention of the Catholic Church on the matter.
Last edited by johnfás; 21st October 2009 at 02:22 PM.
But as I have constantly repeated, that is not what the current cuts achieve, it is not even what they progress towards. What they result in is an entrenchment, a lack of choice and de facto a requirement that everybody send their child to the local Catholic school.
The State would have an argument if it was developing a non-denominational education system and seeking to withdraw all the churches but that is not what is happening at all because it would cost money. What is happening is a discrimination within the system which will have the net effect of closing down many of the schools which do provide an alternative throughout this country. Even the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin recognises the need for that alternative and said so on Radio 1 this morning.
Thank you johnfas for 3 very enlightening posts on this controversy.I fully agree that everybody here should use all democratic means at their disposal to oppose these cuts.The united opposition to them from the Protestant and Catholic Archbishops speaks volumes. The foot in mouth approach of this Minister both to this issue and to the slaves that were incarcerated to work in Magdalen Laundries raises serious questions about his suitability to serve as a Govt. Minister and particularly as Minister for Education.The Green Party have yet to indicate their views but as members of Govt. they have collective responsibility for such decisions----failure on their part to indicate where they stand will be noted.
Now you know how atheists feel.
Ironic when one considers the significant percentage of the children of "cultural Catholics" who are enrolled at these schools.
Which is a bit like telling a starving man in Dublin that he now knows how a man in Somalia feels. I share your point of view, but the crux of the issue is that far from creating space in which to allow a fully secular system of education to emerge, either on its own, or in tandem with a plurality for those of a religious point of view, what is happening here is merely an entrenchment towards monolithic Catholic education.
I would hope that even those who wish to have a secular alternative (which includes people who have faith in religions as well as atheists) would recognise that these cuts close off any space which might exist or be opened in order to provide for that alternative. On that basis it would seem to me that people of such a persuasion should also oppose these cuts whilst maintaining their stance that the system itself needs to change - which is a point shared by most including those who wish to have their child educated in a religious school.
In reality our religious schools are not breeding grounds for fundamentalism, they are on the whole inclusive places and in many cases parents, who do not have faith, may wish to have their child educated in a faith based school and the converse is true as well - for a whole host of reasons. There is space, and there should be space, for a plurality of schools so that parents have a choice of where to send their children. This system does not create such space, it does the opposite, it is retrograde.
Now you know how atheists feel.
Non-denominational education, with all religious instruction to take place outside of regular school hours, is the only solution.
I don't feel any sympathy whatsoever towards Protesant schools.
If ye were that liberal, ye should have campaigned alongside atheists and secularists (not necessarily the same thing) for a fully secular state-funded education system which would have respected the constitutional rights of all citizens.
That presumes a singular point of view of liberalism - namely that everyone should be doing exactly the same thing. Pluralism is an equally liberal position - namely that society can encompass a variety of points of view. I fully support the right of any group to State supported establishment of schools to serve their community provided there is something of a critical mass and that they fulfil the standards of the State curriculum. I also fully support some schools which are currently under the auspices of religious denominations removing themselves from such a situation in order to speed up that process and recognise the diversity which exists within our society.
The form of liberalism you espouse above seeks, intentionally or not, to exclude diversity from our society - the form I espouse seeks to include and encourage diversity based on a common denominator of values to which we all agree, which is then reflected and upheld in the national curriculum.
These cuts will set your cause - which I share to the extent of providing an alternative to religious schools - back a generation.
LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With Quote