Page 3 of 13 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 122

Thread: Grants to Protestant Schools

  1. #21
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    313

    Quote Originally Posted by johnfás View Post
    There isn't additional monies paid, it is payable in a different manner to a different system. The Protestant fee paying schools, which are mainly boarding schools and serve vast areas of the country for the dispersed Protestant population, were treated as comparable to Catholic non feepaying schools. The point being that in all areas of this country a parent who wishes their child to be educated in a Catholic school has the option of sending them to a non fee paying school. In that sense, fee paying education is a real choice.

    The converse applies to the Protestant population, who lack critical mass around the country and thus in most cases a parent who wishes to send their child to a Protestant school must pay fees. The exceptions being 5 comprehensive schools which are not numerically or geographically sufficient to serve the entire community, and indeed only one is a boarding school, it being in Donegal.

    On that basis, in order to give effect to the Article 44 rights of a parent not to be forced to send their child to a school which violates their ethos, the State treated the fee paying Protestant schools as being part of the mainstream education system, rather than an elitist choice. That continued for 40 years with the support of all in Irish society until the last budget. In fact, the resumption of the status quo is still supported by the Catholic Church as demonstrated by an interview with the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin on Morning Ireland this morning who supported the resumption of grants to Protestant schools.

    The difference in funding (until last budget) between Protestant fee paying schools and free Catholic schools was not in the level of funding but in its means of distribution. Rather than being distributed pro rata, it is given in block form and then distributed by a committee which is made up of the representatives of the Protestant Churches to Protestant parents on a means tested basis in order to subsidise the fees which must be paid in order to ensure the right to send a child to a Protestant school.

    The argument that such grants is unconstitutional is entirely ridiculous, both morally and legally. For a start, it is interesting to note that this situation has never been challenged in the last 43 years on a Constitutional basis. Similarly, the idea that treating different categories in society differently (not inequitably, but differently) as being unconstitutional is legal nonsense, something which I would imagine came from the Minister rather than an extremely competent Attorney General. For instance, the Supreme Court has variously held that particular opening hours granted to Jewish shops over other shops was constitutional as it gave effect to the Constitutional rights of the Jewish community and furthermore that providing additional support to single mothers (which prima facie infringes the states obligation to uphold marriage) does not infringe the Constitution as it protects and gives rights to a particular portion of society.

    What is at stake here is pluralism in our society. This matter should not be framed in respect of Protestants v Catholics v Anybody else. These cuts would be fine if it was the intention to push the churches out of education completely, to create a secular state in which schools with religious ethos were entirely private venture. I would disagree with such a move, but it is certainly a rational point of view. However, it must be noted that is not what is happening here. There is no apetite on the part of the State to create alternatives to allow these children to go to non fee paying schools which are non denominational because that would result in additional cost to the State. The simple fact is that the State is merely looking to cut costs, and it is doing so in an overtly discriminatory, and frankly unconstitutional and unjustifiable manner.
    This was all fine for two religion Ireland; I suspect the real target here is Islamic schools.

  2. #22
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In The Zone
    Posts
    600

    Quote Originally Posted by johnfás View Post
    There isn't additional monies paid, it is payable in a different manner to a different system. The Protestant fee paying schools, which are mainly boarding schools and serve vast areas of the country for the dispersed Protestant population, were treated as comparable to Catholic non feepaying schools. The point being that in all areas of this country a parent who wishes their child to be educated in a Catholic school has the option of sending them to a non fee paying school. In that sense, fee paying education is a real choice.

    The converse applies to the Protestant population, who lack critical mass around the country and thus in most cases a parent who wishes to send their child to a Protestant school must pay fees. The exceptions being 5 comprehensive schools which are not numerically or geographically sufficient to serve the entire community, and indeed only one is a boarding school, it being in Donegal.

    On that basis, in order to give effect to the Article 44 rights of a parent not to be forced to send their child to a school which violates their ethos, the State treated the fee paying Protestant schools as being part of the mainstream education system, rather than an elitist choice. That continued for 40 years with the support of all in Irish society until the last budget. In fact, the resumption of the status quo is still supported by the Catholic Church as demonstrated by an interview with the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin on Morning Ireland this morning who supported the resumption of grants to Protestant schools.

    The difference in funding (until last budget) between Protestant fee paying schools and free Catholic schools was not in the level of funding but in its means of distribution. Rather than being distributed pro rata, it is given in block form and then distributed by a committee which is made up of the representatives of the Protestant Churches to Protestant parents on a means tested basis in order to subsidise the fees which must be paid in order to ensure the right to send a child to a Protestant school.

    The argument that such grants is unconstitutional is entirely ridiculous, both morally and legally. For a start, it is interesting to note that this situation has never been challenged in the last 43 years on a Constitutional basis. Similarly, the idea that treating different categories in society differently (not inequitably, but differently) as being unconstitutional is legal nonsense, something which I would imagine came from the Minister rather than an extremely competent Attorney General. For instance, the Supreme Court has variously held that particular opening hours granted to Jewish shops over other shops was constitutional as it gave effect to the Constitutional rights of the Jewish community and furthermore that providing additional support to single mothers (which prima facie infringes the states obligation to uphold marriage) does not infringe the Constitution as it protects and gives rights to a particular portion of society.

    What is at stake here is pluralism in our society. This matter should not be framed in respect of Protestants v Catholics v Anybody else. These cuts would be fine if it was the intention to push the churches out of education completely, to create a secular state in which schools with religious ethos were entirely private venture. I would disagree with such a move, but it is certainly a rational point of view. However, it must be noted that is not what is happening here. There is no apetite on the part of the State to create alternatives to allow these children to go to non fee paying schools which are non denominational because that would result in additional cost to the State. The simple fact is that the State is merely looking to cut costs, and it is doing so in an overtly discriminatory, and frankly unconstitutional and unjustifiable manner.
    On this view of the law (which I concede is the more likely to adopted by the Supreme Court) you are quite right.

  3. #23
    Politics.ie Regular JCSkinner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dublin NSide and Belfast 15
    Posts
    17,517

    Quote Originally Posted by donalmc View Post
    Which bit of fee charging do you have difficulty with?
    The bit where I have to get the chequebook out, obviously. Duh.

    Quote Originally Posted by donalmc View Post
    Fees are never optional or voluntary.
    Choosing to send your child to such a school is usually optional and voluntary. (In my case it wasn't.)
    But all parents do so knowing that the school charges a levy in order to provide better facilities and premises than the state would provide.
    One might better turn attention to the much less transparent practices of many so-called free state schools, which then continually charge 'application fees', 'administration fees', 'registration fees' and a never-ending round of obligatory fundraising (raffles, etc.)
    Please sign the petition to establish a national day of celebration in honour of the vision of the United Irishmen!

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

  4. #24
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In The Zone
    Posts
    600

    Quote Originally Posted by donalmc View Post
    This was all fine for two religion Ireland; I suspect the real target here is Islamic schools.
    The real target is mean-minded, grubby ways of saving money that do not involve cutting the real targets for fear of the great unwashed!

  5. #25
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,922

    JC, that's a mighty Blog you've got. I bet all the girls are impressed - well, the Catholic ones anyway.

    I agree with almost all you say. (Can't agree with all or you'll be even bigger-headed. )

  6. #26
    Politics.ie Regular JCSkinner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dublin NSide and Belfast 15
    Posts
    17,517

    Quote Originally Posted by oscartango View Post
    JC, that's a mighty Blog you've got. I bet all the girls are impressed - well, the Catholic ones anyway.

    I agree with almost all you say. (Can't agree with all or you'll be even bigger-headed. )
    Ta for the nice words, OT!
    Please sign the petition to establish a national day of celebration in honour of the vision of the United Irishmen!

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

  7. #27
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    1,449

    What's this really all about ? What is this spin hiding ? Is a Opus Dei/Knights of Columbanus plot working from within government ? You may sneer at this "far fetched" comment, but what's it really all about. Is it some peace offering to the conservative RCC grass roots of Fianna Fail just before the effects of NAMA, the Lisbon Treaty and the upcoming Budget cuts take full effect ?

    This regime are masters of spin using smoke and mirrors together with multiple red herrings to distract attention from the real stories, thereby attempting to quench the real anger of the people.

  8. #28
    Politics.ie Member Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Galway
    Posts
    24,367

    Quote Originally Posted by JCSkinner View Post
    Private education defined how?
    I would define it as being any educational body that charges fees.

    Would you ban grinds?
    Yes, I would. Special needs supports should be put in place in schools

    Home schooling?
    Yes.

    Would you ensure all schools received such a wealth of funding that they would not wish nor need to fundraise or charge fees of any kind?
    Who said anything about fundraising (voluntary) being banned. Just the charging of fees (involuntary).

    How do you think the public would great your new 80% tax system?
    Stop being hysterical.
    "Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse." - Pierre-Simon de Laplace to Napoleon Bonaparte.

  9. #29
    Politics.ie Regular JCSkinner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dublin NSide and Belfast 15
    Posts
    17,517

    Cato, you're a fascist.
    Thanks for clarifying that.
    Please sign the petition to establish a national day of celebration in honour of the vision of the United Irishmen!

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

  10. #30
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    worker bee in the P.ie bee-hive.
    Posts
    8,428

Page 3 of 13 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast