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Thread: Are working class kids just thicker than middle class ones?

  1. #1
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    Are working class kids just thicker than middle class ones?

    Below is a piece from the Sinn Féin Keep Left website

    SINN FÉIN - KEEP LEFT: Are working class kids just thick? Or do we need to really take a radical look at how to tackle educational disadvantage

    A friend of mine passed on this article to me regarding a radical functioning policy initiative to tackle the chronic underachievement of working class kids in the school system. This problem is as bad here as it is in many countries throughout the world, but politicians are unwilling to really attack the problem.

    Sinn Féin in the North have certainly made efforts to try and make changes, but the experience of England is that the removal of the 11+ will not on its own solve the problems faced by working class kids. A more radical approach is required if we truly wish to see children from predominantly working class areas reaching their full potential.

    Anyway below is a large chunk of the article. if you wish to read it in full go to
    Johann Hari: From North Carolina, a model of how to transform education - Johann Hari, Commentators - The Independent

    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    Did you know... that there are more children getting into Oxbridge every year from the pool of 300 kids at Eton than from the 300,000 kids (in England) on free school meals. Either you believe those Etonians are born smarter – an absurd proposition – or our school system is failing poor children on a vast scale. How many great minds are we allowing to atrophy just because they weren't born to wealth?

    It doesn't have to be like this. A far better system is possible; we just need to follow the evidence. And the road-map runs through – of all places – North Carolina. Something extraordinary has been happening in the state's schools over the past few decades, and the best guide to this experiment is an important new book by Professor Gerald Grant called Hope and Despair in the American City: Why There Are No Bad Schools in Raleigh.

    He looks at two very similar cities – Syracuse in New York State, and Raleigh in North Carolina. They are both 1950s boomtowns turned to 1980s ghost towns. It's the same-old, sad-old story: industry shrivelled and the white middle classes stampeded to the suburbs, leaving behind shell-cities scarred by poverty. Yet there is today an extraordinary gap between these cities. In Syracuse, only 25 per cent of 12-year-olds can read, write or do arithmetic to the appropriate basic level – while in Raleigh, it is 91 per cent. Almost all of the schools in Syracuse fail; none of the schools in Raleigh do. What are they doing differently?

    He looks at two very similar cities – Syracuse in New York State, and Raleigh in North Carolina. They are both 1950s boomtowns turned to 1980s ghost towns. It's the same-old, sad-old story: industry shrivelled and the white middle classes stampeded to the suburbs, leaving behind shell-cities scarred by poverty. Yet there is today an extraordinary gap between these cities. In Syracuse, only 25 per cent of 12-year-olds can read, write or do arithmetic to the appropriate basic level – while in Raleigh, it is 91 per cent. Almost all of the schools in Syracuse fail; none of the schools in Raleigh do. What are they doing differently?

    Raleigh's governors decided to do something bold and unconventional: they looked to the scientific evidence. In 1966, Professor James Coleman was commissioned by the White House to conduct the largest study, to that time, of what makes good pupils succeed and bad pupils fail. After years of on-the-ground analysis, he came up with something nobody expected. He found that the single biggest factor determining whether you do well at school or not isn't your parents, your teachers, your school buildings or your genes. It was, overwhelmingly, the other kids sitting in the classroom with you. If a critical mass of them are demotivated, pissed off and disobedient, you won't learn much. But if a critical mass of them are hard-working, keen and stick to the rules, you will probably learn. Watch any 10-year-old: they are little machines for snuffling out the sensitivities of their peer group, and conforming to them.

    Facing their schools' failure in the 1980s, the Raleigh school board returned to this evidence and tried to puzzle out: how should it change the way we run our schools? Touring the schools, they could see why the research was right. Children from poor families need more help than kids from rich families. They are more likely to have chaotic home lives, less likely to have the importance of education drilled into them from birth, and they have lower expectations for themselves.

    In small numbers, in an ordered environment, these poor children can quickly be brought up to the level of the rest, and indeed exceed them in many cases. But when they form the majority of a school's pupils, the teachers can't cope, discipline breaks down, and learning stops. A school for poor children soon becomes a poor school.

    So they formulated a bold – and strikingly simple – solution. They wouldn't allow any school, by law, to have more than 40 per cent of its children on free school meals, or more than 25 per cent of children who were a grade below their expected level in reading or maths. Suddenly, the children who needed the most help wouldn't be lumped together where their problems would become insurmountable; they would be broken up and fanned out across the educational system. Raleigh merged its school system with white suburban Wake County, so they became one entity, sharing pupils. In order to soothe suburban suspicion at this change, Raleigh turned a third of its inner-city schools into specialist academies, offering excellent music or drama or language specialisms. Soon, children were bussing in both directions every morning, in and out of the suburbs.

    Many conservatives savaged the plan as "social engineering" and said it was doomed to fail. Some parents were angry, and a few decamped for the private school system – until the results came in. Within a decade, Raleigh went from one of the worst-performing districts in America to one of the best. The test scores of poor kids doubled, while those of wealthier children also saw a slight increase. Teenage pregnancies, crime and high school drop-out rates fell substantially.

    It's not hard to see why. Each school had a core majority who respected the rules and valued education – and the other kids normalised to their standards. Those who found it tough could now be given special attention, because they weren't any longer surrounded by a mass of equally troubled kids. Today, 94 per cent of parents in Raleigh say they are happy with their child's education. School boards supporting this integration keep getting re-elected.

    Raleigh succeeded because it built genuinely comprehensive schools: in which rich, middle-class and poor kids learned together. In Britain, we tell ourselves we have built "comprehensives" – but, except in a few enclaves, we have done nothing of the sort.

    We allocate school places according to how close you live to a school. This immediately creates a social apartheid where middle-class children have successful schools in leafy suburbs, while poorer children are ring-fenced in sink schools and end up at Tesco at 16 with few useable skills. (Rich children are creamed off entirely into private schools.) Comprehensivisation didn't fail; it didn't happen.

    There are only a few areas in Britain with genuinely mixed schools, like Grampian – and they get the best overall results. At the opposite end of the spectrum is Kent, where children from the middle and the rich are creamed off into grammar schools in which just one per cent of kids are on free school meals. They have the worst overall results in the country.

    So we know how to make schools work: integrate them. Occasionally, our politicians take a tiny step that brings us closer to this. The Labour council in Brighton allocates school places by lottery; the Tories say they will abandon catchment areas, letting a few poor kids slip through. But both only tinker at the extreme social segregation that crowbars apart the educational system.

    Integration is a good policy for bleak recession times since it delivers dramatic improvements at little extra cost. Raleigh actually spends less than the US national average on its schools, and 25 per cent less per pupil than failing Syracuse. In the long term, integration actually saves us a fortune in welfare payments and prevented crime.

    Yes, the right will scream at first that it is "an attack on the middle class". In fact, it is a great compliment to the middle class: it wants to use their children and their values as the sun around which every child's education revolves. Yes, some parents will scream that they don't want their kids being taught alongside "chavs" and "pikeys". This should be called out bluntly – it is bigotry.

    A democracy is based on a bargain: every child gets a chance to succeed, whatever their background. Today, we are breaking our deal. We are leaving millions of children to fail, just because their parents didn't have money. Do we want to be a country where our children are sorted at five into different playgrounds according to Daddy's bank account? Do we want to be an place where rich children only glimpse poor children from the car window as they are driven to their better, plusher school, and their better, plusher lives? Or do we want something better for our kids?

    Our politicians insist that "we're all in this together". This will only be true if – at last, and at least – our children go to school together.

    j.hari@independent.co.uk

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  2. #2
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    Interesting. Of course, the education system fails poor kids because it was designed to do so. It's a pity that all the wibbling and raving about Pearse's role in the Rising or his alleged sexuality completely drowns out what should have been his lasting legacy - his ideas on a reformed education system. The Murder Machine, archaic language aside, is still a vitally important document and just as relevant today as it was 100 years ago.
    Soul almost completely worn through

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    Politics.ie Regular Prester Jim's Avatar
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    The Brits (or at least the non govt independent education experts) have recently come around to this way of thinking and may be about to change the system if they can get over the problem that the Nu Labour gov are to blame for some of the worst decisions.

    http://www.politics.ie/education-sci...wing-them.html

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    Addressing the original question: Are working class kids just thicker than middle class ones?

    I lived on the Northside of Dublin for many years before relocating to the Southside of the Liffey, so I am admirably placed to offer an empirical view on this.

    On average the Northside kids are 11.234% thicker and 14.23% poorer. So the answer is YES, but the relationship between dimness and wealth is not linear.

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    Do you really think that the Government we have would put any funds into sorting out our education system in this clever way?? It seems to suit them to ghettoise poor kids, and indeed I once worked in a poor district, and saw clever young achieving children being brought down to the lowest common denominator because of the crap schools they went to and the expectation that those children would all fail, or get nowhere. Then you have the kids in the posh schools, secluded from real life, and becoming the sort of @"entitled" people we now have running the country, because they have not experienced real life. Balance is needed in society, then it will happen in our schools, and poor kids who are intelligent, will get a chance at last. And we will all benefit from what they have to offer. Dash

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    Politics.ie Regular truthisfree's Avatar
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    Very interesting article, I would never have thought of that as being the cause, serious food for thought there.

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    Thanks Sam. Great read...

    The Murder Machine

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    Depends on how thick the planks are,
    and where, they were stolen from in the first place!

  9. #9
    Politics.ie Regular mr_anderson's Avatar
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    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The answer is simple - its the parents.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I have attended both public and private schools and there was no difference in the standards of teachers or teaching (if anything, it was the public school which had the better teachers).[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]However, there was a major difference in the emphasis and priority that the parents put on education.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Or more precisely, it came down to the sacrifice they were willing to take in order to make sure their children got the best possible start in life.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]No more was this so obvious than during the reign of 'Jacks Army'.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I saw parents (mostly fathers) fork out literally thousands to follow the Irish squad through various countries, yet scream blue murder when asked by their kids school for £100. [/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]It was the same type of parents who wouldn't see it as their responsibility to make sure their kids did their homework.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Rather than sit down and help, they saw it as some sort of failure on behalf of the teacher if the child couldn't do it.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The kids pick up on this and act accordingly at school.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    He found that the single biggest factor determining whether you do well at school or not isn't your parents, your teachers, your school buildings or your genes. It was, overwhelmingly, the other kids sitting in the classroom with you. If a critical mass of them are demotivated, pissed off and disobedient, you won't learn much. But if a critical mass of them are hard-working, keen and stick to the rules, you will probably learn. Watch any 10-year-old: they are little machines for snuffling out the sensitivities of their peer group, and conforming to them.

    I wonder if you looked at the parents of the kids who were hard-working, keen and stuck to the rules would you find a more in-depth answer.
    Conversely, examining why some kids are are demotivated, pissed off and disobedient could uncover some of the core problems.

    Nonetheless, its a novel solution to the symptoms of the problem and would be worthwhile pursuing.
    Last edited by mr_anderson; 18th October 2009 at 06:33 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_anderson View Post
    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The answer is simple - its the parents.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I have attended both public and private schools and there was no difference in the standards of teachers or teaching (if anything, it was the public school which had the better teachers).[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]However, there was a major difference in the emphasis and priority that the parents put on education.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Or more precisely, it came down to the sacrifice they were willing to take in order to make sure their children got the best possible start in life.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]No more was this so obvious than during the reign of 'Jacks Army'.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I saw parents (mostly fathers) fork out literally thousands to follow the Irish squad through various countries, yet scream blue murder when asked by their kids school for £100. [/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]It was the same type of parents who wouldn't see it as their responsibility to make sure their kids did their homework.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Rather than sit down and help, they saw it as some sort of failure on behalf of the teacher if the child couldn't do it.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The kids pick up on this and act accordingly at school.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    He found that the single biggest factor determining whether you do well at school or not isn't your parents, your teachers, your school buildings or your genes. It was, overwhelmingly, the other kids sitting in the classroom with you. If a critical mass of them are demotivated, pissed off and disobedient, you won't learn much. But if a critical mass of them are hard-working, keen and stick to the rules, you will probably learn. Watch any 10-year-old: they are little machines for snuffling out the sensitivities of their peer group, and conforming to them.

    I wonder if you looked at the parents of the kids who were hard-working, keen and stuck to the rules would you find a more in-depth answer.
    Conversely, examining why some kids are are demotivated, pissed off and disobedient could uncover some of the core problems.

    Nonetheless, its a novel solution to the symptoms of the problem and would be worthwhile pursuing.
    Definitely something in this. It is very easy to spot the families where education is given a priority and where it is not - in this country it is exacerbated by the notion that the State should pay for everything and if the kids don't excel it always someone else's fault. Ironically, this got worse during the Celtic Tiger years when a job in the construction industry was seen as the way to go and a lot of boys were positively encouraged to leave school at 16.

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