Why does Capitalism so desperately want to pretend class does not exist?

[Cael]

Capitalist society is based on class. Objectively, everybody must agree on that. Some people have large amounts of private property and some people do not. Those who do not are forced to work for those who do. Thus, we have a class system. The capitalist state is brought into existence to maintain the division between the classes by maintaining the right of private property. It does this by use of its armed forces, educational system, religious teachings, and media. All of this of this is so obvious as to not really be interesting.

But what is interesting is the need of capitalist society to exclude from its discourse the very element which allows it to exist - class difference. Desperate attempts are made to show that class no longer really exists and that we are all equal. Examples are given of people who were born poor but became millionaires. Of course the fact that some people can move between classes (some of the wealthy even drop down into the ranks of the poor,) certainly does not imply that the classes no longer exist.

Class is the dirty secret on which capitalism is based. Of course, it was not always so. A hundred years ago nobody tried to pretend that class didnt exist. But the fact that capitalist society is based on class difference does not sit well with modern PC sensibilities. No ideological solution has been found to the problem - except to pretend that it doesnt exist.

[myk]

I think it is central to US freemarket philosophy that anyone can make it. It is the American dream ideal.

In Ireland nationalism is the main driver of the idea that class doesn't exist. It is portrayed as something only relevant to British and other arisitocratic societies. Supposedly such antipathy towards the "old enemy" binds all Irish people together in republicanism regardless of their wealth or background.

Britain is perhaps the oldest of what you would claim as the capitalist societies. Clearly there has never been a denial of class divides in Britain. So based on this I don't agree with your general thesis that a capitalist society requires the denial of existing class differences.

[bormotello]

Sorry Cael, but you are looking in wrong direction

Classes exists, but not way as communists are trying to represent

It always will be two classes

Ruling class, which consists of politicians, state bureaucrats and owners of big companies.
In capitalism owners of companies can be real owners or hidden, when
Company is public, i.e. directors.
The same applies for communism, socialism etc. In this case, it will be only hidden owners, such as directors of all state companies. Politicians and public servants still will be in ruling class, even if they will rule under name of “working class”

[Middleaged]

Class always existed and will always exist no matter what "ism" in vogue.

There will always be the haves and the have nots, its the way humans are programmed.

I would love to hear an alternative, but if it contained policies like taking land and property from people, I'll pass.

[Cael]

I think it is central to US freemarket philosophy that anyone can make it. It is the American dream ideal.

In Ireland nationalism is the main driver of the idea that class doesn't exist. It is portrayed as something only relevant to British and other arisitocratic societies. Supposedly such antipathy towards the "old enemy" binds all Irish people together in republicanism regardless of their wealth or background.

Britain is perhaps the oldest of what you would claim as the capitalist societies. Clearly there has never been a denial of class divides in Britain. So based on this I don't agree with your general thesis that a capitalist society requires the denial of existing class differences.

I didnt say taht capitalist society requires the denial of class - I pointed out that no attempt to deny it was made a hundred years ago - but that there is a modern need to deny it. I think this need is even shown in the UK today.

Your point about nationalism is a good one, its certainly the last refuge of gombeen spivs to try and say - sure we're all Irish anyway.

[Cael]

Class always existed and will always exist no matter what "ism" in vogue.

There will always be the haves and the have nots, its the way humans are programmed.

I would love to hear an alternative, but if it contained policies like taking land and property from people, I'll pass.

Given that landed property is the very basis of class difference, if you dont take away landed property then you dont take away class.

[Cael]

Sorry Cael, but you are looking in wrong direction

Classes exists, but not way as communists are trying to represent

It always will be two classes

Ruling class, which consists of politicians, state bureaucrats and owners of big companies.
In capitalism owners of companies can be real owners or hidden, when
Company is public, i.e. directors.
The same applies for communism, socialism etc. In this case, it will be only hidden owners, such as directors of all state companies. Politicians and public servants still will be in ruling class, even if they will rule under name of “working class”

In Ireland there are very few owners of big companies, so they are not a power block like you present. In Ireland it is land that determines the ruling class.

[johnfás]

In Ireland it is land that determines the ruling class.

If not land then something else. What creates a ruling class is the possession of power, irrespective of what that comes from. There is a ruling class whether it is landlords, bankers or the politburo.

[myk]

In Ireland it is land that determines the ruling class.

I'd disagree with that. Compare a poor farmer in the west of Ireland with a doctor in the same area. The poor farmer certainly has more land, but the doctor, even if he rents his premises is wealthier.

I think a useless definition of class is inter-generational wealth. The idea that you are poor and that therefore your children are likely to be poor, or you are wealthy therefore your children are likely to be wealthy.

There is a small minority with huge amounts of wealth in Ireland, but that elite aside I think the biggest determining factor in class is work and education standards.

If your parents don't work most of the time, but generally rely on welfare for their financial support, then I think there is a higher likelihood that you will follow the same path.

Similarly the level of education achieved by your parents is likely to determine the level of education you will achieve and the opportunities you have as a result.

These class barriers are not impentrable in Ireland, but I think the hardest one to break is out of the welfare trap i.e those who grow up in an environment where income is generally sourced from state welfare rather than from working.

My own two cents, but I am interested in knowing what other people think.

[Middleaged]

Given that landed property is the very basis of class difference, if you dont take away landed property then you dont take away class.

Why do we need to take away class? we are all different, we all have different aspirations needs, wants.

If we were all the same we'd have no class and no diversity.

You have Jesus on your avatar, he recognised the differences in people, the class of people he met, he never tried to change that, but he tried to teach others to respect those no matter what class they came from.

I was playing Golf yesterday, and at the prize giving we had 4 classes 1,2,3 and ladies, this is a classist society, we send one of each class out together to enable those who are a high handicap to learn from those with middle handicap. We all came in an had dinner and a pint together, we respect each other is the point I'm making, even if there are those that may dislike each other. Its a simple example I know, and appreciate that society isn't that simple.

Class to me is evidence of where you are in society, I know people, great people from what is known as "lower/working class, I respect everyone until they do something that forces me to change my view.

Class does not dicate what kind of person you become...