NAMA Discount

[maxthedog]

That still leaves the property loans on the Balance Sheet. Do you not understand the importance of removing these to quarantine?



+1




Banks have Cash, but they also have the property loans on their Balance Sheets. That won't do anything for anybody. The worst of all outcomes.

Once the banks have clear titlehold on the debts, they must now inform us the taxpayer, how and why they lent the money on each large property deal, any fraud and the banker is jailed, remember the 115 million an acre loan in Ballsbridge was given with no planning permision secured.

We then go to the international bond holders who are owed by the bank and we deal with them in an open and transparent manner.

I am not against the recapitilisation of the banks. But I want a clear and transparent method. Using the present laws of the land, which are more than adequate.

Words like secrecy, sensitive information etc. These are all lies. Anyone with basic maths could work out the state of play in our banks.

i believe the secrecy is to hide past and future corruption.

[BodyofEvidence]

Once the banks have clear titlehold on the debts, they must now inform us the taxpayer, how and why they lent the money on each large property deal, any fraud and the banker is jailed, remember the 115 million an acre loan in Ballsbridge was given with no planning permision secured.

We then go to the international bond holders who are owed by the bank and we deal with them in an open and transparent manner.

I am not against the recapitilisation of the banks. But I want a clear and transparent method. Using the present laws of the land, which are more than adequate.

Words like secrecy, sensitive information etc. These are all lies. Anyone with basic maths could work out the state of play in our banks.

i believe the secrecy is to hide past and future corruption.

poohee...NAMA's much better. Clearly....

See how many agree with it here
The Irish Economy Blog Archive Long-Term Economic Value
and here
The Irish Economy Blog Archive BaNama Republic

[wombat]

This would see us paying about 50% of the 2006 peak on average.
.

Why 2006 values? If the bubble started in 2002 why not set that years value as the likely future value of the property? Reading the fantasy that was presented to the High Court, where Carroll was going to borrow from the banks to finish developments that he can't partially sell even at today's value and which was prepared by an independent property expert it looks like official Ireland is still living on planet Bertie.

[SPN]

Why 2006 values? If the bubble started in 2002 why not set that years value as the likely future value of the property? Reading the fantasy that was presented to the High Court, where Carroll was going to borrow from the banks to finish developments that he can't partially sell even at today's value and which was prepared by an independent property expert it looks like official Ireland is still living on planet Bertie.

Read the full paragraph as a whole:The issue of pricing will be decided by the EU, and will probably be based on a 20 year moving average. This would see us paying about 50% of the 2006 peak on average.

Okat, I can see now that that wasn't written very clearly.


As I understand it, the bubble started to trend above the 20 year moving average from about 2002, and it peaked in 2006/7 at about 30% above the trend. We are currently about 30% below the trend. So (and statisticians can correct me if I'm wrong) the trend line is about half way between the peak and where we are now.


The other issue is land use. As Wysiwyg pointed out, there are idiotically rezoned acres in every Town and Village in the Country. My understanding is that there will be input from Planners in the valuation process so that off-the-wall rezonings that were done to placate political donors will be reversed, and the land will be valued at Agricultural values.

I wonder could we get CAB to investigate every such reversal of zoning?


Naw. FF, FG and Labour would never put their own necks in the noose like that.

[wombat]

As I understand it, the bubble started to trend above the 20 year moving average from about 2002, and it peaked in 2006/7 at about 30% above the trend. We are currently about 30% below the trend. So (and statisticians can correct me if I'm wrong) the trend line is about half way between the peak and where we are now.

Naw. FF, FG and Labour would never put their own necks in the noose like that.

I can see the logic now. It seems reasonable for commercial property in the centre of Dublin and even housing developments on the outskirts of the cities. I can see the logic in land on the outskirts of Kilbeggan being valued as agricultural land. The tricky part will be valuing unoccupied office buildings in the 4 corners of Parlon country as anything other than high tech halting sites.
Regarding FF,FG, Lab putting their heads in a noose - the Greens are in govt., McDowell tried being in & out simultaneously and he's out now.

[SPN]

Regarding FF,FG, Lab putting their heads in a noose - the Greens are in govt., McDowell tried being in & out simultaneously and he's out now.

Green Councillors never voted for these idiotic rezonings that we are all about to pay for. That was all down to FF, FG and Labour.


The Greens are in Government, and are making some subtle, but unsexy changes to how things are done. FF, FG and Labour do not like it one bit - the push to make TDs account for their expenses being one that has all three Parties sticking knives in the Greens.

Being in Government is about getting things done. Being Green is about getting things done better.

TDs from the Big Three have a different idea of what "better" means than you or I. Just have a look at the payrises and perks they have given themselves in the last 10 years.

And just look at how hard they are fighting against giving them up. Phil Hogan, Ruairi Quinn, I'd keep naming the barstewards only it would go too far off topic, but it does make me very angry.

[Dios]

The valuations that NAMA buys the loans for will have nothing to do with the rate of defaults. The default will be on the original loan amount not the amount NAMA bought the loan for.

If the loan defaults and the underlying assets/collateral do not equal the remaining outstanding sum, the taxpayer will be left to foot the bill. There is nothing in that legislation to stop this from happening. If the valuations are correct, it won't really matter to NAMA or the banks, so why not include it?

If we pay too much for the Loan Book we get less Shares later. Shares are the best way to getting our money back.

Shares in what, there are no guarantees the banks themselves will be worth a damn by the time this is all wound down.

You, me, and the rest of the Citizenry voted in the Councillors. We now get to pick up the tab. The trick is to minimise the size of the tab.

Only about 20% of the country voted for these particular councillors, so no, the shared burden of guilt doesn't wash.

The only way out of the mess we are in is to use a NAMA of some sort.

Don't miss the wood for the trees, the only way out of this mess is to get liquidity restored to the economy. A neccessary step towards that is retrieving the deposits, people's life savings. Beyond that, we have no need whatsoever for the existing banks or their toxic loans. And as has been recently made clear, there are no guarantees the banks will begin lending again after NAMA. None.

The Government have put out a proposal for how it could work. If people see problems, or better ways of doing things, then they can be looked at during the debates on the Bill in the Oireachtas.

That old saying, people don't decide issues, they just decide who will decide issues? By a variety of fairly odious shenanigans, the people in charge of the country at the moment have little to no connection with the electorate, and no particular desire to change that state of affairs. We have politicians with more on their minds than the good of the nation, and no good can come of that.

If there is something you want to see changed, go talk to your local TD or Senator.

I prefer the more direct route myself.

[Dios]

As I understand it, the bubble started to trend above the 20 year moving average from about 2002,

Central bank released documents saying housing in Ireland was overvalued in 2000.

[SPN]

If the loan defaults and the underlying assets/collateral do not equal the remaining outstanding sum, the taxpayer will be left to foot the bill. There is nothing in that legislation to stop this from happening. If the valuations are correct, it won't really matter to NAMA or the banks, so why not include it?

We are assured (for what it is worth) that the price NAMA pays will be based on a realisable value for the asset and the pledged collateral.

Shares in what, there are no guarantees the banks themselves will be worth a damn by the time this is all wound down.

My preference, as I have stated for more than 6 months, is to set up new, mutually owned Banks and Building Societies. The Establishment Partys prefer to try and reconstruct the Banks (that provide them with funding).

Only about 20% of the country voted for these particular councillors, so no, the shared burden of guilt doesn't wash.

You will have to provide some backup to that statement. How can 20% of the electorate control 100% of the County and City Councils?

Don't miss the wood for the trees, the only way out of this mess is to get liquidity restored to the economy. A neccessary step towards that is retrieving the deposits, people's life savings. Beyond that, we have no need whatsoever for the existing banks or their toxic loans. And as has been recently made clear, there are no guarantees the banks will begin lending again after NAMA. None.

Apparently Fianna Fail and Fine Gael disagree with you.

That old saying, people don't decide issues, they just decide who will decide issues? By a variety of fairly odious shenanigans, the people in charge of the country at the moment have little to no connection with the electorate, and no particular desire to change that state of affairs. We have politicians with more on their minds than the good of the nation, and no good can come of that.

The people who granted the rezonings have been (generally) re-elected. The voters aparently don't see the linkage between the Councillors they elect and the decisions those Councillors make.

[Dios]

We are assured (for what it is worth) that the price NAMA pays will be based on a realisable value for the asset and the pledged collateral.

Brilliant, so there should be no difficulty folding in a guarantee, mechanism and schedule for repayment.

You will have to provide some backup to that statement. How can 20% of the electorate control 100% of the County and City Councils?

You weren't referring to TDs?

Apparently Fianna Fail and Fine Gael disagree with you.

If they were in a position to disagree with any authority the banks would already be nationalised.

The people who granted the rezonings have been (generally) re-elected. The voters aparently don't see the linkage between the Councillors they elect and the decisions those Councillors make.

Are the local authorities setting up NAMA?