Libertarians- why does anyone take them seriously?

[Clanrickard]

I read this nugget on the Irish Liberty Forum. It is a thread in which the libertarians discuss whether or not governments should allowed to tax. The saner ones understand that taxes have to be levied but it is still a laugh to read>
http://irishliberty.forumotion.com/e...rnment-t29.htm

It ends with 2000mikles articulating his view of what should be done he says I put it to the floor that the only way we can have government in a free society is if we adopt a somewhat Misesian view of government, discussed by Hoppe in his speech on Democracy.
Democracy: The God that Failed
(From 5 minutes onwards )
Mises' defintion of democracy was a union of self-governing individuals. This government would be kept in check by the individuals' unlimited right to secession.
Note that in this case you wouldn't have a State, but rather a kind of club...

So we could all seceded from Ireland if we wanted to. Hilarious stuff.

[20000miles]

No it really happened. 5 million americans starved to death during the great depression while the government destroyed food. In 1933 alone the government ordered the slaughter of over 6 million pigs so that pork prices could remain high. I'm sure you'll find this all on google. There are plenty of good sources out there. Of course most of this is covered up by the mainstream bourgouis media. It would make people doubt capitalism if they knew the truth.

This really takes the cake. In the first post you mock me for taking consistent anti-government positions (more consistent than yours), then you describe a horrible episode in American history, instigated by the US government, and then blame it on capitalism.

You need to take a long walk...

[20000miles]

I read this nugget on the Irish Liberty Forum. It is a thread in which the libertarians discuss whether or not governments should allowed to tax. The saner ones understand that taxes have to be levied but it is still a laugh to read>
How to pay for government.

It ends with 2000mikles articulating his view of what should be done he says I put it to the floor that the only way we can have government in a free society is if we adopt a somewhat Misesian view of government, discussed by Hoppe in his speech on Democracy.
Democracy: The God that Failed
(From 5 minutes onwards )
Mises' defintion of democracy was a union of self-governing individuals. This government would be kept in check by the individuals' unlimited right to secession.
Note that in this case you wouldn't have a State, but rather a kind of club...

So we could all seceded from Ireland if we wanted to. Hilarious stuff.

If say, Lithuania wanted to secede from the Soviet Union, would you oppose it?

[Clanrickard]

If say, Lithuania wanted to secede from the Soviet Union, would you oppose it?

Lithuanians are a distinct group. You referred to the individuals' unlimited right to secession.. An individual cannot seceded from a state in the real world.

[Retrolives]

I read this nugget on the Irish Liberty Forum. It is a thread in which the libertarians discuss whether or not governments should allowed to tax. The saner ones understand that taxes have to be levied but it is still a laugh to read>
How to pay for government.

It ends with 2000mikles articulating his view of what should be done he says I put it to the floor that the only way we can have government in a free society is if we adopt a somewhat Misesian view of government, discussed by Hoppe in his speech on Democracy.
Democracy: The God that Failed
(From 5 minutes onwards )
Mises' defintion of democracy was a union of self-governing individuals. This government would be kept in check by the individuals' unlimited right to secession.
Note that in this case you wouldn't have a State, but rather a kind of club...

So we could all seceded from Ireland if we wanted to. Hilarious stuff.

Ireland seceded from Great Britain, very few people think that was a bad thing. Why not Co. Louth secede from the Republic. Applying the same logic, I think it would be much better off. As Hoppe has explained, smaller states are always more prosperous for in order for them to survive they most adopt capitalism. Think Singapore, Hong Kong, Luxemburg, even Ireland is currently ranked number three for economic freedom by the Heritage Foundation. If we were to turn socialist we'd starve to death in weeks and everybody would leave. The Irish government MUST keep taxes low if the standard of living is not to fall dramatically.

[20000miles]

Lithuanians are a distinct group. You referred to the individuals' unlimited right to secession.. An individual cannot seceded from a state in the real world.

Right, so what exactly is it that makes a secession acceptible? If you were to limit it to destict goups, then perhaps the smallest political units (towns, neighbourhoods), should be permitted to secede.

[Pig Destroyer]

The OP seems to wrongly assume that anyone does take them seriously (in the real world - except for themselves...)

[Monkey-Magic]

This really takes the cake. In the first post you mock me for taking consistent anti-government positions (more consistent than yours), then you describe a horrible episode in American history, instigated by the US government, and then blame it on capitalism.

You need to take a long walk...

Well yes I did get a bit side-tracked with the issue of the pigs. If you follow the posts you'll see I was trying to show that the US was never a libertarian country and always had a powerful state and government. The destruction of the pigs was a form of state intervention to rescue the business classes. I never said you supported it. In fact I know you don't. My point is a real "libertarian" country couldn't function. Well at least not without huge human suffering and large private armies to enforce the massive inequality.

[Clanrickard]

Right, so what exactly is it that makes a secession acceptible? If you were to limit it to destict goups, then perhaps the smallest political units (towns, neighbourhoods), should be permitted to secede.

You are deliberately muddying the waters. You said "individual" not town or neighbourhood. For the record there must be some delineation for a secession to take place such as linguistic, historical or cultural. Otherwise you'd have Counties trying to leave Ireland which would give rise to chaos. Bottom line is that to suggest a self governing club of individuals with individuals being entitled to leave is madness.

[Drico]

Well yes I did get a bit side-tracked with the issue of the pigs. If you follow the posts you'll see I was trying to show that the US was never a libertarian country and always had a powerful state and government. The destruction of the pigs was a form of state intervention to rescue the business classes. I never said you supported it. In fact I know you don't. My point is a real "libertarian" country couldn't function. Well at least not without huge human suffering and large private armies to enforce the massive inequality.

Even that ridiculous statement is a backtrack from you.

So now you admit that a Libertarian System can work with huge human system and large private armies for longer than 3 seconds? Kinda contradicts your first post...

Anywho, from a Socialist Party member ergo a Trotskyite I find a criticism of any other system for bring about "huge human suffering" kinda unnerving. Do you remember by any chance the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics... the gulags weren't exactly a holiday camp nor were the purges & show trials or the famines.

I would take libertarianism over socialism any day.