Libertarians- why does anyone take them seriously?

[locke]

I have argued that one can develop a socialist democracy, with in a capitalist system. In fact people do do that across the world.

I've had a similar thing with people confusing the terms free-market and capitalism.

One is a method of ownership, the other describes how economic entities interact.

In fact, there's no reason you can't have a free-market system with left-wing ownership systems. Similarly, you can have capitalist ownership inside highly regulated markets.

It's strange because a lot of the arguments you see given for capitalism are actually arguments for the free market.

[Red Boyneside]

There's no reason why Libertarianism and capitalism need to be associated.

In theory, people who believe in minimal government should have no problem with other ownership systems like workers'or producers' cooperatives. In practice, I've never seen a non-capitalist libertarian, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case.

I'm assuming MM is specifically refering to Free Market "Libertarians" represented on here by the likes of 2000miles and CD27

[CookieMonster]

By libertarians I am referring to those ultra-capitalist Ron Paul nutjobs as opposed to anarchists.

Anybody who knows anything about economics would know that a society based upon libertarian principles would self-destruct in about 3 seconds. These libertarians don't believe in the state ie they are against the state building roads, they are against public schools and hospitals, they believe the guards and army should be privatised, social welfare of all forms (ie dole, medical cards, disability allowance) should be abolished etc etc

Of course the reason these libertarians are opposed to the state is because they dislike paying taxes. It is essentially an ideology based on greed and rampant individualism. Nothing would ever be done in the interest of the public. For example a road would never be get built unless somebody could make a profit on it. Toll booths would appear every 100 metres. No buses or trains would run on non-profitable routes leaving huge amounts of people without transport. No postal service could exist in rural areas. People wouldn't be able to afford to go to the doctor, unemployed people would be made homeless, there would be no minimum wage so wages would drop to such a low level that unskilled workers couldn't survive without working 80 hours a week, some children would never get to go to school and god only knows what other horrors. There would probably be dead bodies lying in the streets. Why would anyone clear them? There's no profit in it.

There are some libertarians on here like 2000 miles and you just have to wonder about the sort of world he wants. It's a world so full of hate, selfishness and mutual distrust that nobody humane would want to live in it. You'd just want to commit suicide or something. For example 2000 miles wants to replace the police with private security firms. Whoever could afford the most private security would have the most "justice".

I really object to them calling themselves "libertarians". It implies they support freedom for the people. In reality they just want to create a ruthless form of wage slavery. Everyone would be forced to rent their body out to a capitalist in order to survive. Of course the libertarian will say it's a free contract but that a joke. It's not a free choice if your only options are prostitute your body to a capitalist or starve.

Ah ha ha ha ha! Talk about clueless misguided ideological socialist claptrap.

[Drico]

Are you saying that the "founding fathers" were not racists and thieves? You should read what George Washington writes about the "red man". He calls them sub-human and compares them to animals that should be hunted. It's really disgusting. Also do you know how many slaves Thomas Jefferson had?

I am quite sure that they were racist and thieves in regard to land grabbing off the American Indians. However, no more so than the British or any white leaders of the time.

My issue is not with that however but your claim that the American War of Independance was because they didn't want to pay taxes. They didn't want to pay to taxes to a government to whom they were not represented, they did not want to pay taxes to a foreign country. They wanted independance, just like we did under British occupation. To say that the founding fathers of America had nothing to do with the creation of such a powerful and prosperous country is simply being completely oblivious to the facts (arguing that their racism may be linked to the US's inherent racism however would at least be based on solid grounding..).

[Dios]

America's founding fathers were libertarians

Was the term libertarian even in currency at the time? Not to mention they were also slave owners, so lets no get carried away with appeals to authority here.

taxes are a punishment on productive activities (such as production, savings and capital formation) - activities that benefit all humanity.

Generally they tend to benefit whoever is doing them at the time.

Libertarianism is social darwinism dressed up in flowery rhetoric, and there is no other way to describe a system that espouses the removal of social welfare and state supported healthcare.

[Drico]

[quote=Dios;1819681]Was the term libertarian even in currency at the time? Not to mention they were also slave owners, so lets no get carried away with appeals to authority here.


Look at what I was commenting in relation to and the term was likely not in currency then. That doesn't really have any bearing on actualities...

The most certainly do support freedom of the people and to say that "a society based upon libertarian principles would self-destruct in about 3 seconds" is pure idiotic. America's founding fathers were libertarians and that country has lasted a bit linger than three seconds...

I think you will see that my point is rather valid. America was founded based on Libertarian principles and has lasted a lot longer than 3 seconds, 232 years so far in fact.

[cd27]

I'm assuming MM is specifically refering to Free Market "Libertarians" represented on here by the likes of 2000miles and CD27

I don't see how you can exclude the free market from freedom?

[HarshBuzz]

In the early 1930s an estimated 5 million Americans starved to death while the government ordered the destruction of meat, crops and milk in order for prices to remain high for capitalists.

are you sure you're not confusing this fantasy with the man-made famines in the Ukraine during the same period?

if not, then give us a reputable link

[Dios]

I think you will see that my point is rather valid. America was founded based on Libertarian principles and has lasted a lot longer than 3 seconds, 232 years so far in fact.

As has already been mentioned, they lasted that long because of the growth of the central government, indeed on several occasions has owed its survival to the draft. It may not have been the ideal of the founding slavers, but it worked.

No response to the social darwinism dig?

[CookieMonster]

No. It had alot more to with robbing and dispossessing the native americans of their lands and resources than "freedom". I don't even know what you mean by freedom anyway. Sure they was a lot of growth in the US in the 19th century but that was for the benifit of the industrialists and capitalists rather than the workers. The average american industrial worker had a much less rights than their comrades in western europe at the time. In fact the US has an extremely violent labour history, much more violent than europe. Trade Unionists used to be shot and knee-capped by goons hired by the bosses. Police used to baton charge picket lines. You risked your life if you campaigned for better wages and conditions for workers. Is this what you mean by freedom? In the early 1930s an estimated 5 million Americans starved to death while the government ordered the destruction of meat, crops and milk in order for prices to remain high for capitalists. Is that what you mean by freedom? You know the Soviet Union in the 30s had much higher growth rates than the US ever did. The Soviet Union achieved an industrialisation in a decade that took the USA a century. And the people in the USSR certainly did not have freedom so I have no idea what the point of your post is.

What does that have to do with Libertarians?