Libertarians- why does anyone take them seriously?

[sandar]

the masses can and do save to become investors, not all of them, but they could if they wanted. In fact this cvurrent crisis partly happened because the masses saved a little and invested in property, not merely their own residence but property for profit, which kind of diaproves the theory that they cant invest.
In fact in africa they cant, because the capital which is in the country is not sdistributed, not in the way it is in a capitalist society.

[Dios]

Dios, I had to laugh when I read the line about needing nothing other than a credit card and a computer and a few hundred quid. Almost half the world's population lives on less than a dollar a day. Where would these people get a few hundred Euro, never mind access to a credit card and a computer? This is why I said you are a fantasist.

What, did you have visions of sub Saharan tribesmen checking their stock on their ipods or something? This is a solution specific to Ireland initially, and pending its success here, the process could be replicated elsewhere, even in those few areas where computers are thin on the ground. The stock market predates the microprocessor.

You failed to address my point that people with a "good spread" of investments would still be screwed in the current climate - plus more speculation on markets means bigger bubbles and greater consequences when the bubble bursts.

Actually if you had invested in bank shares in Ireland a short time ago, you would now be sitting on an ungodly profit. There are plenty of areas where stocks in companies could be a good investment, and I pointed out two. This could be seen as a good time to start investment actually as the markets are low now, and will eventually climb again. The common idea of day traders making a fortune overnight, which you seem to share, is not a realistic vision for long term investment.

As I said, your idea is utopian. Cloud cuckoo land mate.

Bit rich coming from an extreme socialist.

[Red Boyneside]

yes and the great majority of the half who do live on less than a dollar a day do not live in a capitalist society, and certainly not a libretarian one........

Really? Go on, just for the laugh, give me an example of these non-capitalist economies.

CD, to give shareholders the highest return on investment someone has to lose. And the losers are those people working in sweatshops in the far east and latin america earning povert wages. Your system cannot benefit humanity as a whole. It is not designed to benefit humanity as a whole. It does exactly what it says on the tin, makes megabucks for a small minority.

[Red Boyneside]

Actually if you had invested in bank shares in Ireland a short time ago, you would now be sitting on an ungodly profit.

If you sold them this time last year maybe. But if everyone cashed them in then the crisis would have been even worse!

Bit rich coming from an extreme socialist.

You've hit on the point I was driving at in a backhanded way there. It is the idea that capitalism can be made work for the majority is the utopian idea, not Socialism.

[sandar]

ok, well there are people in china, ethopia, sudan who live on less than a dollar a day and those countries do not practice capitalism as marx or adam smith would define capitalism. they live in a pre capitalist society. Marx view was that vcapitalism was progressive because it was p[rogress to move towards capitalism and away from the economic model prcaticed in places like ethiopia.
Smith believed the same, the difference between them was that smith believed in capitalism as the end, while marx bleieve capitalism was a nescessray mode of production on the way to socialism,.

[Dios]

CD, to give shareholders the highest return on investment someone has to lose. And the losers are those people working in sweatshops in the far east and latin america earning povert wages. Your system cannot benefit humanity as a whole.

And we reach the grisly underbelly of extreme socialism at last, whereby lower income and above all else foreign workers would be better off starving by the side of the road than feeding teh evul capitalist machine.

If you sold them this time last year maybe. But if everyone cashed them in then the crisis would have been even worse!

So in every way your objections have been answered. Have you any further objections not of a philosophical nature?

You've hit on the point I was driving at in a backhanded way there. It is the idea that capitalism can be made work for the majority is the utopian idea, not Socialism.

Buh buh socialism, great.

[sarahj]

Read Jane Jacobs if you want to know why some places (cities mainly) are rich and others poor, we can't help Africa, if we really wanted to help we'd give them a ticket out of those places.

RB, you say capitalism does not benefit the masses because they can't save to become investors. Even those who can't save benefit from the investments of others in more efficient capital / production techniques, making things cheaper. Workers can of course save.

Um, why can't we help Africa? They have plenty of resources we don't mind taking away from them.

Surely we could help them by allowing them to control their own lives instead of being at the mercy of the west.

[Red Boyneside]

And we reach the grisly underbelly of extreme socialism at last, whereby lower income and above all else foreign workers would be better off starving by the side of the road than feeding teh evul capitalist machine.


So in every way your objections have been answered. Have you any further objections not of a philosophical nature?


Buh buh socialism, great.

This post makes absolutely no sense mate. I'm not going to waste my time trying to decipher what you are attemting to say.

[Dios]

Um, why can't we help Africa? They have plenty of resources the Chinese don't mind taking away from them.

Surely we could help them by allowing them to control their own lives instead of being at the mercy of the east.

Fixed that for you.

[Red Boyneside]

ok, well there are people in china, ethopia, sudan who live on less than a dollar a day and those countries do not practice capitalism as marx or adam smith would define capitalism.

They are part of the global market these days. I don't think you can say that China doesn't practice capitalism in this day and age. There are very few places on the planet that aren't touched by the market. The reason we have higher living standards in the west is because workers fought for them, industrially and politically.