IMF Report on Ireland

[sarahj]

Sarah

Considering the EU negotiates on behalf of its members are GATT and other world economic forums, and you don't want Ireland to be part of it - Ireland must leave the EU too.

We would be a tiny country, with barriers to our exports to Europe(including UK) and America.

How could a country of 4m, with no oil or anything, survive against such barriers to trade?

It'd be like Devela's Ireland during the economic war with britain - much grimmer than today's problems.

No it would not be like dev's Ireland in the economic war. And if we were in an economic war for merely going against the wishes of the rich, then surely its better than cowing to them constantly as we do now.

I am not even suggesting that we make a package of all these proposals and force them on the Irish people. I am simply showing that there are many other ideas to solve our problems besides attacking working class people.

[bob3344]

No it would not be like dev's Ireland in the economic war. And if we were in an economic war for merely going against the wishes of the rich, then surely its better than cowing to them constantly as we do now.

I am not even suggesting that we make a package of all these proposals and force them on the Irish people. I am simply showing that there are many other ideas to solve our problems besides attacking working class people.

No, screwing up whats left of our economy to make a statement to 'the rich' is childish and unproductive.

What are our resources? overvalued empty houses, cows and unproven wind farms ?

Yeah, fk the EU, they're only holding us back LOL.

[sarahj]

No, screwing up whats left of our economy to make a statement to 'the rich' is childish and unproductive.

What are our resources? overvalued empty houses, cows and unproven wind farms ?

Yeah, fk the EU, they're only holding us back LOL.

Nobody said that bob darling, don't put words in my mouth, thank you!

I said that the rich are going to mess up our economy eventually and will only hang around while there's profits in it for them, so why not restructure our economy now to suit us instead of waiting for them to pull out?

I have already listed some of our resources. We have plenty. If we didn't, we wouldn't have been able to attract MNCs.

[Dreaded_Estate]

Nobody said that bob darling, don't put words in my mouth, thank you!

I said that the rich are going to mess up our economy eventually and will only hang around while there's profits in it for them, so why not restructure our economy now to suit us instead of waiting for them to pull out?

I have already listed some of our resources. We have plenty. If we didn't, we wouldn't have been able to attract MNCs.

It's a great theory but what exactly can we do to produce all this wealth sarah?

Selling stuff to each other, no matter it is, just doesn't work. We've tried it with houses and failed spectacularly.

Developing domestic based export small companies is the way forward. But until the costs of doing business here are lowered we will not be able to compete internationally.

What other avenues are available to us right now?

[HarshBuzz]

Where the Public Sector pay grades went loopers was in the middle management and upper grades. The best example is that of our TD's who are tied to the Principal Officer Grade at €101k. Can anyone here argue that this grade should not be reduced to say €80k? I reckon there needs to be a 5-12.5% cut across grades up to and including Higher Executive Officers, 15-20% on APO/PO's and 25% on higher grades. With their equivalents across the public sector hit similarly. So the cuts will range from 5% for the likes of Local Authourity outdoor staff, Teachers/Gardai 7.5-10%, 12.5% for a Town Clerk in a large Town/Principal of a large school, 20% for our TD's and middle management grades, and 25% for Assistant Secretary's/Secretary's/Judges/Ministers etc.

Can anyone disagree with that?

I can, it's not enough

[NotoriousFin]

How can they say that unless they compare the same jobs, which they can't do?

And the majority of public sector workers are not paid well at all. It is the consultants, judges and politicians that are overpaid, not the teachers, nurses and binmen.

Firstly: Every public sector job is higher paid than the average industrial wage.

Now, Sarah, the annual wages judges, politicians and consultants, although overpaid, they do not comprise of all of our €24 Billion wage bill.

All of our public servants are overpaid by global standards.


Secondly, this graph will speak for itself:


The following is also frightening:


Now the fact of the matter is that this is economically unsustainable.
The wealth generators in this country such as those working in pharmaceuticals, or IT, can't expect to get paid the same as your average nurse, garda or teacher without being on the job for years.
Not just this, but the working weeks are a lot longer than say the 37.5 hour working week that the nurses have.

This is the lasting legacy of Bertienomics.

To boot: Public sector standards of living went up, despite the pension levy because of deflation.

[sarahj]

It's a great theory but what exactly can we do to produce all this wealth sarah?

Selling stuff to each other, no matter it is, just doesn't work. We've tried it with houses and failed spectacularly.

Developing domestic based export small companies is the way forward. But until the costs of doing business here are lowered we will not be able to compete internationally.

What other avenues are available to us right now?

Making the citizens happy with what they have.

Why does GDP growth have to be our ultimate economic aim??

I don't suggest selling stuff to each other as an end. The end should be to produce what is needed and allocate it to where it is needed. That IS after all what an economy is supposed to do...

[sarahj]

Firstly: Every public sector job is higher paid than the average industrial wage.

Now, Sarah, the annual wages judges, politicians and consultants, although overpaid, they do not comprise of all of our €24 Billion wage bill.

All of our public servants are overpaid by global standards.


Secondly, this graph will speak for itself:


The following is also frightening:


Now the fact of the matter is that this is economically unsustainable.
The wealth generators in this country such as those working in pharmaceuticals, or IT, can't expect to get paid the same as your average nurse, garda or teacher without being on the job for years.
Not just this, but the working weeks are a lot longer than say the 37.5 hour working week that the nurses have.

This is the lasting legacy of Bertienomics.

To boot: Public sector standards of living went up, despite the pension levy because of deflation.

Obviously average earnings in the PS will be higher than that in the private sector as there are no workers on minimum wage and why would we want that. I have no problem with every PS worker being paid the average industrial wage. What I don't want is for the low paid workers to be cut in either sector.

[Conor]

Firstly: Every public sector job is higher paid than the average industrial wage.

That's obviously not true.

The following is also frightening:

All that indicates is that average public sector earnings increased at a slower rate than private sector wages over the decade in question. What's frightening about that?

[theoutsider]

[QUOTE=sarahj;1808410]Those same economies of scale can exist within a nationalised industry or a syndicalised coop.

QUOTE]

Actually no they can't. To continue to use the Dell example.

Dell inc goes to Intel and says we want chips for our plants that are scattered around the world and are needed for our millions and millions of computers. Intel say fine and they work out a price based on the size of the customer - in this case Dell

Paddy PC goes to intel, who at this stage are POed at losing their Irish plant in the great revolution, and aks for chips for their one plant in ireland. Intel go fine and the price they charge is considerably higher than Dell because the scale is differnt.

This occurs across the whole of the manufacturing process and Paddy PC is twice as expensive as Dell. Which one will people buy?