Its time to Nationalise Ireland's land

[Geckko]

EU citizens want cheap, safe and readily available food. If you were to rely entirely on the Market to produce that food, nobody would supply it, and most food we eat in the EU would be imported from areas over which we have no control vis a vis safety and quality.

That was credibility flying out the window.

[goosebump]

As far as subsidies are concerned, they will be gone by 2013, and food will be traded on world market prices.

That only relates to Export Refunds, not the SFP.

This is still all up in the air, and largely depends on what comes out of WTO.

[Cael]

Oh yeah, farmers have such an easy ride. Part time farmers do TWO jobs, and pay tax from both. Full time farmers work well over 40 hours a week and have little to show for it.

Do you know any farmers who pay income tax on on their farm? I come from a farming backround, and I know quite a few farmers, including one who gets a Single Payment of 250,000 euro, and none of the farmers I know pay income tax on their farm income.

[Cael]

The subsidies the government give farmers keeps your food cheap and Irish. Take subsidies out by all means, remove them completely, but all those farmers will just go on the dole and do nothing with the land and wait for the next property boom to sell it off. Farmers don't live some life of Riley, they work hard and 99% of those subsidies you hate so much end up in the pockets of places like Tesco and Dunnes. And then there is the mind knumbing bureacracy of dealing with the agriculture department to deal with. Form upon form detailing every single part of your work.

Farmers get very little out of the government and they respond in kind. Maybe one day you'll appreciate the great services that you, as an "urban worker" get, but it doesn't matter because in reality nothing can replace the freedom, peace and fresh air of the country. Still, I hope you enjoy the rat race!

Do you buy your food in Asda in Enniskillen? If you buy it in the south you would not consider it cheap - particularly as the urban worker has already paid up to two thirds of its production cost in subsidies.

You say farmers get very little out of the government, in fact, on average, farmers get two thirds of their income in hand outs from the taxpayer. Certainly, you are right; there is nothing like being able to walk around in wide open fields and breadt the fresh air. So why do you think the urban workers should compensate you for that luxury? It wouldnt be so bad if farmers were in the least grateful, but I know from hearing many conversations since I first learned to speak, that Irish farmers regard the urban working class with even more contempt and hatred than the do the travelers. If the urban worker could be a fly on the wall for even one day, I can assure you you wouldnt be getting any more hand outs.

[Watcher1]

The inheritance tax that farmers enjoy isn't fair.

Why should PAYE workers be expected to take a disproportionate share of the burden tomorrow, whilst farmers get off scot free?

Ah yes, Inheritance Tax - the tax levied on assets purchased by taxed income. It's the ultimate double tax. You could even call it a death tax. The €10 air exit tax announced in October budget pails into insignificance with this ultimate exit tax.

[Flynnster]

@Cael: You are so ill informed its pathetic. What kind of figures do you have to support your assersion that no farmers you know pay income tax? That is the sorta rubbish which has always been floated by morons who don't know the first thing about farming.

Its a load of waffle with no substance whatsoever and your idea that all agricultural land be nationalised is beyond stupid. You are obviously somebody with some sort of issue with farmers in general and have some serious farm related issues which in my opinion you should consult a professional about.

[Cael]

First off, I come from a farming family so I may be a bit biased.

A big reason that Irish land is so expensive is that roadside land was sold for housing plots. So farmers were selling a 1/4 acre piece of land for €50,000, in extreme cases.

What the government should have done was regulate the price of this land, to say the agricultural price plus a percentage, say 20% maximum.

The failure to do this led to a huge increase in price for first time home buyers, because they would prefer not to upset farmers than save people money. That would be far too progressive. The government messed up basically.

The same price regulation should be made for roads built through farmland. As far as I know, farmers are getting 23% of the National Development Plan money, compared to 10% for something similar in Denmark, the country with the best income equality in the world.

As far as subsidies are concerned, they will be gone by 2013, and food will be traded on world market prices.

Anectodally, I know that many farmers are against subsidies even though they received them, because they stifled growth on their farms, because of the quota system.

Because of this, it can get a bit tiresome to hear people give out about farmers making money off grants, because for example, farmers are receiving the same price for milk that they did 20 years ago, all because of the quota/subsidy system.

I still agree that farming should be reformed, but not all farmers make large profits, despite working extremely long hours. There are plenty of farmers who rent most their land, like my own father, and are in a tough situation precisely because of the high price of land, so someone like him would actually benefit from stronger regulation of land, if it was done properly.

As far as nationalising land, I think it could be good in theory like all acts of social justice, but it would be extremely difficult in a country where farms are so small and fractured on average. There are also questions of efficiency and compensation. And you would be stepping on a lot of peoples toes too, to say the least, although that's true of any revolutionary change. However those may be my own biases shining through.

A very good post, a chara. I accept that farmers selling off sites has added to land price inflation, but this is very far from the whole story. It simply couldnt account for agricultural prices being ten times that of France. I believe the real reason for this is the social backwardness of Ireland, where land operates in exactly the same way as gold did in the Europe before the "discovery" of America. In such a system, the hoarders of gold/land are in a position to suck up all increases in productivity gained through advances in technology, increased foreign investment, etc.

I also agree that farmers dont make much profit, or often any profit on their land. Agriculatural land in Ireland is certainly not bought with a view to what it can produce, but how it can suck in capital from the rest of the economy.

[Cael]

@Cael: You are so ill informed its pathetic. What kind of figures do you have to support your assersion that no farmers you know pay income tax? That is the sorta rubbish which has always been floated by morons who don't know the first thing about farming.

Its a load of waffle with no substance whatsoever and your idea that all agricultural land be nationalised is beyond stupid. You are obviously somebody with some sort of issue with farmers in general and have some serious farm related issues which in my opinion you should consult a professional about.

Were you born and raised on a farm? Because I was. It seems to me I am not the one who has no idea of what they are talking about. I told you that I personally know farmers who dont pay income tax, I didnt say that NO farmer pays income tax.

[Watcher1]

Do you buy your food in Asda in Enniskillen? If you buy it in the south you would not consider it cheap - particularly as the urban worker has already paid up to two thirds of its production cost in subsidies.

You say farmers get very little out of the government, in fact, on average, farmers get two thirds of their income in hand outs from the taxpayer. Certainly, you are right; there is nothing like being able to walk around in wide open fields and breadt the fresh air. So why do you think the urban workers should compensate you for that luxury? It wouldnt be so bad if farmers were in the least grateful, but I know from hearing many conversations since I first learned to speak, that Irish farmers regard the urban working class with even more contempt and hatred than the do the travelers. If the urban worker could be a fly on the wall for even one day, I can assure you you wouldnt be getting any more hand outs.

The "urban worker". What is that? What about non farming rural worker? Does he/she get subsidised by your Urban Worker? Does the non farming rural worker subsidise the farm produce? Or are you really speaking out of an ignorant arse?

[Cael]

larry goodman actually gets that size of a single farm payment because he owned such a large number of cattle during the period 2000 - 2002 , he keeps most of his cattle indoors so thier is no correlation between present payment and land ownership in this instance

a small point i know but relevant none the less

i myself was born and raised on a farm and i regulary help out on the home farm

as to why agricultural land is so expensive in this country , while the property boom undoubtably drove up the average price of land , the reason for the high prices are cultural , thier is undoubtably a fascination with land within the irish psyche , most farmers would sell thier soul before they would sell part of thier farm , no matter how unprofitable it is , hence the reason such a tiny amount of land comes on the market each year in this country , even we were to get over our attachment to the soil in this country , it would be difficult to consolidate large holdings as thier are so few large blocks of good quality land , most farms are fragmented , divided by little by roads so baschically even you managed to consolidate 500 acres , handling such a disjointed platoform would be quite laborious and inneficent

i suspect what will happen in time( 50 years perhaps ) is most of conacht and the ulster counties will be farmed for forrestry and the larger farms of leinster and munster will be all that is farmed in a modern efficent and intensive way

So do you really think the urban worker should continue to finance this aspect of the ancient Irish psyche, or finance the sacred cows that Irish farmers seem to think they are?