Its time to Nationalise Ireland's land

[MacO'velli]

It's also time I married Kiera Knightly, won the rollover lottery and saw Spurs win the Champions League.

Pie, meet sky.

You can have Kiera, The lotto's mine!!!!

[IrishConservative]

Why not go the New Zealand route? Remove all subsidies and grants from the farming sector, and let them survive in the real world.

This (after considerable pain) led to massive consolidation of farms, and improved productivity and profitability.

This is a far superior option to the rubbish being touted at the start of this thread. Something needs to be done to bring the ludicrous situation concerning the Irish Agricultural industry, however a blanket buyout would only damage a failing government and land the country with a whole bunch of land they would be unable to govern correctly before the greed that stems through each and every Irish government starts ,as earlier stated, giving preference to political supports etc..

There is no way you could get past the land of my father stuff and the sob stories of the poor farmers either.

Remove all subsidies, increase produce in defiance of any European quota and sell the goods.

[cHeal]

Oh yeah, farmers have such an easy ride. Part time farmers do TWO jobs, and pay tax from both. Full time farmers work well over 40 hours a week and have little to show for it. You want to hear about theft?

When was the last time any farmer got use out of Dublin Bus? Farmers DO pay water charges, as do most living in rural areas. Farmers have no need for the dart, or the motorways, the port tunnel or the metro, but they still work far more than you and still pay taxes toward that ********************e. Roads down the country are falling apart, they are slowly returning to dirt. There is almost no police or fire protection in the country. NO publicly provided transport. no parks or play areas provided for by the state.


The subsidies the government give farmers keeps your food cheap and Irish. Take subsidies out by all means, remove them completely, but all those farmers will just go on the dole and do nothing with the land and wait for the next property boom to sell it off. Farmers don't live some life of Riley, they work hard and 99% of those subsidies you hate so much end up in the pockets of places like Tesco and Dunnes. And then there is the mind knumbing bureacracy of dealing with the agriculture department to deal with. Form upon form detailing every single part of your work.

Farmers get very little out of the government and they respond in kind. Maybe one day you'll appreciate the great services that you, as an "urban worker" get, but it doesn't matter because in reality nothing can replace the freedom, peace and fresh air of the country. Still, I hope you enjoy the rat race!

[Factorem]

Oh yeah, farmers have such an easy ride. Part time farmers do TWO jobs, and pay tax from both. Full time farmers work well over 40 hours a week and have little to show for it. You want to hear about theft?

When was the last time any farmer got use out of Dublin Bus? Farmers DO pay water charges, as do most living in rural areas. Farmers have no need for the dart, or the motorways, the port tunnel or the metro, but they still work far more than you and still pay taxes toward that ********************e. Roads down the country are falling apart, they are slowly returning to dirt. There is almost no police or fire protection in the country. NO publicly provided transport. no parks or play areas provided for by the state.

From a cost of services perspective, urban living is way more efficient than urban living. That's not to say one can live without the other. For example rural roads, school busses serving small rural schools, rural hospitals, rural ambulance services, etc. all costs a lot more than urban services. So yes, we pay for rural services and you pay for urban parks and play areas (we don't have as much open space as you have down the country).

The subsidies the government give farmers keeps your food cheap and Irish. Take subsidies out by all means, remove them completely, but all those farmers will just go on the dole and do nothing with the land and wait for the next property boom to sell it off. Farmers don't live some life of Riley, they work hard and 99% of those subsidies you hate so much end up in the pockets of places like Tesco and Dunnes. And then there is the mind knumbing bureacracy of dealing with the agriculture department to deal with. Form upon form detailing every single part of your work.

I agree that the subsidy system is flawed. It's totally immoral too.

Farmers get very little out of the government and they respond in kind. Maybe one day you'll appreciate the great services that you, as an "urban worker" get, but it doesn't matter because in reality nothing can replace the freedom, peace and fresh air of the country. Still, I hope you enjoy the rat race!

Why the silly comment?

And why should I pay to subsidise your lifestyle?

Maybe you should join the rat race seeing as the profits from farming are so unsatisfactory for you.

[Breadan O'Connor]

Why not go the New Zealand route? Remove all subsidies and grants from the farming sector, and let them survive in the real world.

This (after considerable pain) led to massive consolidation of farms, and improved productivity and profitability.

In terms of sheer productivity per acre, the most productive farmers in the world would be the Dutch, followed perhaps by the Danes. But both of those countries have the same subsidy regime as Ireland

[cHeal]

From a cost of services perspective, urban living is way more efficient than urban living. That's not to say one can live without the other. For example rural roads, school busses serving small rural schools, rural hospitals, rural ambulance services, etc. all costs a lot more than urban services. So yes, we pay for rural services and you pay for urban parks and play areas (we don't have as much open space as you have down the country).

I don't really see why they would cost a whole lot more, they are wholly inferior to those in Dublin and are generally in far worse condition. There are less people locally whose taxes can pay for them but they still have a high usage/cost ratio because their condition, generally is appalling but people in the country are far more tolerant of it. Near my home, it took 4 years to properly build a 300 m stretch of road. For 3 years of that time it was left in a half finished state with some of the worst driving conditions I have ever seen. It was eventually finished along with a new road which joined it, but within 4 months parts of the new road had begun to collapse into a small stream crossing under it. That is standard enough in the country.

I agree that the subsidy system is flawed. It's totally immoral too.

yes it is, but I want to emphasis that Farmers aren't getting reach off government subsidies, they are making ends meet, and they are having to work harder than 99% of the rest of the population to do so. Most farmers stay farmers because they know nothing else, they will never be apart of the "knowledge" economy.

I'm not sure what exactly is immoral about it, but it's certainly illogical and unfair to urban dwellers to a great extent but it does serve a purpose. The subsidies are for a number of things. First of all, without them, shops simply could not effort to sell Irish produce, the Irish people would refuse to pay the actual cost of producing its food. We would rather spend that money on big tv's and barbeques. Farmers thus would go broke, go on the dole and worst case senario have to sell their land. Farming would become industrialise, destroying our natural environment and the scenic beauty of this country which is still a huge draw for tourism.

So the government is giving subsidies to help the seller be competitive with foreign farmers who probably have a huge advantage and are far more industiralised and efficient. Irish meat is still regarded as some of the finest in the world, this may very well be because of this policy, and our beautiful countryside is saved from the industrial farming landscape. It'd be great if farmers in this country could compete on their own and I'd imagine some do but many are too old to adapt to the new world which has been shaped around them and their land is all they have. Take that away from them and they will just become another burden on the state anyways.

The fact of the matter is there are actually good reasons to subsidize farmers and while it's lovely to think of how much we'd save by removing that subsidy, what we would lose is probably far greater. This country has full food independence, that's really really good. We have a beautiful, natural landscape which is largely kept that way by farmers. We have beautiful food, which comes from animals which probably, actually enjoy their lives. I probably value that more than you because I'm from the country, but in reality what else is this little Island good for? Our Cities are dirty, our Banks are criminal enterprizes for all intents and purposes and our governments corrupt, what else is there to be proud of as an Irish person, except for the rual way of life? The good fun, the relaxed and friendly people and the beautiful landscape we share with nature.

Why the silly comment?

And why should I pay to subsidise your lifestyle?

Maybe you should join the rat race seeing as the profits from farming are so unsatisfactory for you.

Because Envy is a mortal sin.

You don't subsidise my lifestyle, I live in Dublin, though I do luckily avoid the rat race. You don't subsidise my parents lifestyle either. They both work, and only really farm as a hobby.

God I love the country.

[atlantic]

Listen they are doing this in Belarus at the moment and its a pure disaster,there are weeks where people get paid with the products they produce

Why should such a tiny group, 40,000 full timers and 85,000 part timers (according to teagasc) be allowed to hold the rest of the population to ransom?

Im not talking about giving land to anyone, it should be all in public hands and farming should be done on an industrial scale.

[NewRepublic]

We see that farmers now get two thirds of their income from hand outs paid for by the urban worker. So its clear that the current structure of farming is uneconomical and can only be sustained by putting a massive burden on urban workers. Farm collectivisation has a bad name, but, in reality, this is what the EU has being trying to do for a long time, i.e. to push out the small and middle sized farmer in favour of the large ranch. The only trouble with this system is that it puts incredible and unmerited wealth in the private hands of the rancher. Larry Goodman, for example, collects a single hand out every year of half a million euro - just for owning so much land. It makes much more sense to run these large farms/ranches as state farms, with workers doing a 40 hour shift, like any other worker. As I say, all Irish farms are massively subsidised already by the taxpayer. Even if the state farms were no more profitable, or even a good bit less profitable, it would still mean a massive saving for the population in general, as land for roads, schools, homes, hospitals, etc. would already be in state hands, so no addition fee would have to be paid. This would make an enormous change to the very structure of Irish society, as increases in productivity in the workforce would no longer be converted into higher land prices - as happened over the last ten years, and during all times of prosperity over the last several hundred years. Instead of increased productivity being swallowed up by land price inflation, it could instead be put into building up a native Irish industry that would lessen our junky like dependence on the multi-nationals. Its this retardation of Irish industry that is the real cost of leaving the land in the hands of about 1% of the population.

Joseph Stalin how are ya?

[johnnyh]

Off the top of my head, you might run into a problem with the little known Common Law concept of the right of ownership...

More seriously, the strength of the agricultural lobby in Europe is more to do with its contribution to output, employment and the social fabric of France and Germany, than it has to with Irish (or Greek, or Portuguese) farmers.

• Should CAP reform have moved at a faster pace? Almost certainly.
• Did CAP establish an over reliance on production subsidies and take farmers' eye off the real game (ie, demand-led production and innovation)? Unfortunately yes.

...increases in productivity in the workforce would no longer be converted into higher land prices...

You are conflating productivity and salaries -- one of the key reasons we're in the current mess. Had productivity been increasing (at least) as fast as our collective payroll, then we'd still be a competitive economy. Perversely, the opposite of your argument is more accurate. Had wages and demand for plasterboard cubicles (houses) not soared to the unsustainable levels we now know they did, neither would land prices have became so grossly inflated.

Agricultural reforms are progressing -- with all the maneuverability of the Titanic. The decoupling of subsidies from (over)production has long since been implemented, as have programmes of farm retirement and modernisation. In the very near future, it's highly likely that what remains of farming will be entirely market-driven and the single farm payment will be "modulated" out of existence.

Nationalising sheds and grassland is neither here nor there.

[CookieMonster]

No solution to any problem involves the words "nationalise". You'd think we learn this by now, but no...