2002 Revenues - 2009 living standards

[SPN]

Again the problem here is people are been asked to bailout a government and a banking system that couldn’t budget properly.

Can we please use the term "Establishment" instead of making it Party Political. If we start the partisan blame game we're not going to stay on track long.

[SPN]

Again the problem here is people are been asked to bailout a ESTABLISHMENT that couldn’t budget properly. They have hundreds of experts to advise them, not like the man on the street. It is not the peoples fault in the Private sector or Public sector that the ESTABLISHMENT got everything screwed up, they are not economic experts and have enough to be getting on with, trying to keep a roof over their heads, food on the table for their kids, and clothes on their backs.
The people did not overspend the money the ESTABLISHMENT did ,and it seems to me that the ESTABLISHMENT are blaming everyone but themselves, saying” you had a good time now you pay the price” so bend over and take your medicine.
The people in this country should revolt if the ESTABLISHMENT want to tax them anymore, because when they start they will not stop, it will keep creeping up every year as they come back for more, until people start to wonder why they work at all.
The baboons in ESTABLISHMENT won’t worry about us peasants they have themselves well insulated against any financial turmoil, working expense accounts etc.

90% of the problem we have today would be here even if we had had Joe Higgins as Taoiseach for the last ten years.

But there are enough threads about how we got here. This thread is about how we reconcile the fact that we have 2003 income, and 2009 demands on that pot.

Whatever we do is going to involve a re-balancing to bring revenues up, and expenditure down

How can this be best done?

[Boggle]

But the prices were a factor of what people were prepared to pay, not of the cost of building. People chose to pay those prices.

'm lucky personally as I saw this coming and, instead of purchasing overpriced property, I cleared all my debts and stowed a little cash away for a rainy day. But I didn't have a family who needed stability so I'm lucky.

Many, including my brother, have families and want to provide a decent, stable home for their children and given the crap rental regulations (which can see you turfed out if the owner decides to sell - happening all the time back then) and the fact that 40% of houses purchased were by specuvestors, resulting in rapily escalating prices to levels beyond what families could afford, he saw his only choice was to purchase sooner rather than later.


My genuine question to you though is do you think he was irresponsible or do you see that the decision was largely removed from his control??

[slx]

Again the problem here is people are been asked to bailout a government and a banking system that couldn’t budget properly. They have hundreds of experts to advise them, not like the man on the street. It is not the peoples fault in the Private sector or Public sector that the government got everything screwed up, they are not economic experts and have enough to be getting on with, trying to keep a roof over their heads, food on the table for their kids, and clothes on their backs.
The people did not overspend the money the Government did ,and it seems to me that the government are blaming everyone but themselves, saying” you had a good time now you pay the price” so bend over and take your medicine.
The people in this country should revolt if the Government want to tax them anymore, because when they start they will not stop, it will keep creeping up every year as they come back for more, until people start to wonder why they work at all.
The baboons in Government won’t worry about us peasants they have themselves well insulated against any financial turmoil, working expense accounts etc.

I completely agree with you. The Government sat on its lazy fat collective ass and ignored the advise coming from economists and other experts, to the point that Bertie Ahern actually suggested those who were telling it like it is should go and commit suicide!

The people were mis-sold mortgages they were not able to pay in the long term by banks who were out to make a fast buck. Even property developers were mis-sold loans, as the banks grossly over-estimated the value of the land and the properties they were developing. All but a select few of those are now bankrupt or heading that way fast. The only people who benefited were land owners who got vastly inflated prices for their recently re-zoned land.

Is nobody seeing the familiar and ugly pattern of Fianna Fail political corruption ? i.e. rezone land, build on it, make a fortune...

The vast majority of the people had no idea that they were being sold a pup, so they bought in. In many cases they didn't really have a choice, there was no other accommodation available. The almost totally unregulated private rental sector isn't exactly a pleasant place to be, and there was almost no rental accommodation suitable for families.

The Government also decided to destroy Dublin by over-developing it too quickly, creating hundreds of miles of ultra-low density, non-planned ribbon development that cannot be serviced at any reasonable cost.

Surely the logical approach would have been to create a sustainable level of development in Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford. We'd have had some decent sized pleasant regional hubs rather than this total mess that we have managed to get ourselves into.


It is the duty of Government to PROTECT the people from such crooked practices not to throw them to the wolves then blame them for being bitten.

Fianna Fail simply have to go. From my perspective, they no longer have any mandate, they've been Governing on the basis of a big web of lies, spin, corruption and complete and utter incompetence.

I am also sick of all these wishy-washy commentators calling for a 'national Government' and asking the opposition parties to contribute to the Governing of the nation in this time of economic crisis. The problem is not one of failed Government due to political point scoring, if anything we need a drastically more aggressive opposition.

What do they want the opposition to do ? Absolve Fianna Fail for decades of corrupt, incompetent rule and just fall into line behind the 'Soldiers of Destiny' and march off over a cliff?

It was absolutely infuriating to see Mary Hanafin sitting on that panel on Q&A refusing point blank to let the opposition know the true figures. It's not just the opposition who need to know these things, the public at large needs to know. The sheer arrogance seems to know no bounds! Who the hell does she think she is ?! The Government seems to think it's THEIR money when it's actually OUR money!

Transparency ?! Anybody?!

Honestly, the more I see and hear the more I just want to cut my losses and emigrate. I don't own a house, and my job prospects are looking increasingly dismal. So, perhaps it might be time to start a fresh somewhere with a sensible approach to governance.

It would be funny if this were just some kind of political satire sketch, but the reality of is that this international laughing stock of a Government have destroyed the economy, destroyed peoples' lives and seem determined to go on and do some more damage.

[SPN]

My genuine question to you though is do you think he was irresponsible or do you see that the decision was largely removed from his control??

It isn't about whether he was responsible or irresponsible, it is about how we bridge the gap between income and expenditure.

That one issue needs to be our primary focus. Once we solve that we will be able to address the other problems in our society.

[SPN]

I completely agree with you. The Government sat on its lazy fat collective ass and ignored the advise coming from economists and other experts,

Yeah, we know all that.

But what is the solution?

[slx]

Yeah, we know all that.

But what is the solution?

What's worrying about that statement is that I don't think you can move forward without getting rid of the corrupt and the incompetent deadweights that are running the place.

I keep hearing that from Fianna Fail and also from various media commentators. It's like you can't be critical of what happened and what's continuing to happen unless you propose an entire and fully worked out economic plan for the next 20 years which will solve everything.

Frankly, that's just ridiculous.

Step 1: Change the Government

[anlkestony]

Yeah, we know all that.

But what is the solution?

Thats what economic advisers to govt are paid for, are they up to the task

[orbit]

I was listening to one of the teachers union heads the other morning making the usual pat arguments about education being our future etc. and why education has to be spared the cutbacks. Now, I felt sorry for the guy, in a way, because that is what they are paid to do. Their union members expect them to fight for their corner.

The only way to avoid this utterly futile sectional pleading is to announce there will be a fixed percentage cut from the budget of ALL government departments BAR NONE. ie NO EXCEPTIONS.

So, this has to (be seen to) happen independent of tax increases. The purpose of any tax increases will be to bridge the deficit, NOT TO FUND GOVERNMENT SPENDING.

So, once they figure out what the reduction is spending has to be and what the level of debt is we can bear, the only important question to answer is whether to cut jobs or to cut pay. And that is where the detailed discussion and debate is needed, wiith input from An Bord Snip.

[MarD]

What's worrying about that statement is that I don't think you can move forward without getting rid of the corrupt and the incompetent deadweights that are running the place.

I keep hearing that from Fianna Fail and also from various media commentators. It's like you can't be critical of what happened and what's continuing to happen unless you propose an entire and fully worked out economic plan for the next 20 years which will solve everything.

Frankly, that's just ridiculous.

Step 1: Change the Government

I agree. This government had a mandate for proposals it set out in its election manifesto. The kindest assessment is that it was based on incompetence. Zanu-FF had the full resources of the State to determine future revenue projections and failed utterly.
The electorate have no confidence that this government can sort the mess out that they should take a fair share of responsibility for creating. They have had ample opportunity to admit their mistakes. Zanu-FF are like alcoholics in denial, the first step is to admit to the problem, like the recalcitrant alco Zanu-FF are blaming everyone else.
As other posters have pointed out, most people trying to raise a family bought into the property bubble in good faith, to get on the ladder. The Government was supposed to be impartial and should have used its power to curb speculation. They did nothing, they let their developer friends scam the rest of us and not that their building buddies are in trouble and would cause the collapse of the banking system if their debts were called in, the gov comes to their rescue by bailing out the banks. What about the 'little' people who are struggling to reapy theri mortgages, it would be cheaper for the Gov to force banks to renegotiate all mortgages based on current house prices and write off the balance and to take control of land banks and unsold houses from defaulting developers.

The markets don't trust this government; bnak shares are still closer to junk than true value and gov borrowing is at the highest rate for euro countries.
We have the stupid spectacle of Green ministers fiddling while Rome burns.

The only way forward is a new government.