Can public sector workers be let go?

[Big Bobo]

It's not that anyone wants them sacked, but that same job security is a benefit that is not available to those in the private sector. THe PS unions are consistently venting that cuts need to be fair accross the board, without ever taking into account that the job security enjoyed by PS employees (workers is stretching it a bit) is the greatest single benefit that they have.

I also know plenty of left wingers in the private sector who believe that the PS is a fairly cushy number at any level... and some right wingers in the PS, who feel similarly. There are those in the PS who want to to do their work and more but who are stimied by oppressive union structures. as individuals i know many PS workers who i would fire on the spot and their behaviour and attitude in terms of work ethic simply would not be tolerated in the private sector.

That is because private sector workers are exploited. Job security and a pension should be the very least anyone gets in a job but the capitalist media has ordinary people convinced that these are outrageous demands.

[Clanrickard]

Firstly, it has already been pointed out that PS can be sacked or made redundant. Nobdy wants to be made redundant, but that is a decision for the government to make. Dont be surprised if there is a 5,000 redundancy program put in place by next month.

Secondly, it is as hard to sack someone in the private sector as it is in the public sector. All employees are afforded the same rights. The difference arises in the will to sack someone. An employer of a small business who is seeing one of his employees constantly underperform and cost him money will have more will to sack someone than a general serectary of a large organisation who would rather not have to deal the issue as it can be legally time-consuming and detrimental to the organisation as a whole.

The problems lies with the accountability of those who are paid (very well) to manage the PS.

I agree with LF22. A very good post.

[corelli]

Traditionally I believe it was the case that in order to fire a public servant, the Minister of the particular department would need Dail approval.
This is no longer the case, General Secretaries (perhaps also, Asst. Sec's) now have the power to fire people.

Having said that, it is still rare.

Firstly, to fire anyone (in public or private sector) you need grounds for dismissal. Gross misconduct would be the most common, but as far as I know there is no legal definiton as to what constitutes 'Gross misconduct'.
I am aware of one person being fired for gross misconduct. It was either this or face criminal charges of theft, ultimatley leading to sacking anyway.

You can be sacked, but it is rare. Incidentally, giving the state of employment law nowadays, sackings in the private sector are not as common as you may think - the burden of proof rests with the employer to show that a person deserved to be sacked and that can be quite tricky.

Thats correct though I think that the relevant Minister still has to consent to the firing, though that might not be 100% accurate. You are totally correct in that Dail approval is no longer required.


Additionally, I should point out, that a a large majority of the public service, which is not the same as the civil service by the way, but anyway, lets use it as a collective term, would be on fixed term contracts and can just not have their contract renewed.

[oscartango]

The general grounds for dismissing civil servants are set out in the Civil Service Regulations, as amended. The ultimate authority (if my memory is correct) is invested in the Minister for Finance acting as relevant minister for the public service. This power can, as pointed out, be devolved to General Secretaries of departments in certain circumstances and upto certain grades but they would want to be on pretty sure legal grounds - e.g. commission of a felony - before attemtping to exercise it.

Theoretically, a civil servant can only be sacked by the government. That means a Cabinet decision.

[TGPS]

Just asking the question as I always assumed that once you were in the door on a full time contract that was it, you couldn't be sacked. This was repeated on Q&A on Monday and nobody contradicted this. What are the grounds uncer which you can be fired. I spoke to someone in a county council who said he had personnally fired several people over his career. Can anyone answer this question?

there is a process but it's long and convoluted - there is also a demonstrable unwillingness to pursue it.

So bad teachers never get fired, etc. There should be a redundancy process in the public and civil service but there is not; likewise there should be a process to terminate consistently poor performers but there is not - yes it should be difficult (people shouldn't lose their jobs on a whim) but it should be there and used.

Incidentally, very few also have their annual increment held back for poor performance.

TGPS
This Gruntled Public Servant

[Tressell]

Just asking the question as I always assumed that once you were in the door on a full time contract that was it, you couldn't be sacked. This was repeated on Q&A on Monday and nobody contradicted this. What are the grounds uncer which you can be fired. I spoke to someone in a county council who said he had personnally fired several people over his career. Can anyone answer this question?

I don't know if you're trying to stir the sh1t by trying to get another Public v Private 'battle' going again, but the simple answer is Yes, people in the public sector can and do get sacked. Your friend in the co.co. could well be right as I know people who have been sacked for theft, fighting/bullying, drinking, prolonged absenteeism etc. It is not heard or publicised mainly because it is carried out on a personal basis with normally just HR and TU involved. Rightly, if there are grounds to challenge same, these are resolved through Rights Commissioners, Labour Courts etc. Furthermore there are many cases of suspensions without pay, warning letters and verbal warnings also carried out.

We in the Public Sector operate under the same civil, contractual and employment law be it national or EU. and just because its not publicised does not mean it does not happen. Are all dismissals in the Private sector advertised?

The only alternative or reason I can give for people assuming that the PS is immune from dismissal is the fact that (a) the people at the top where the 'buck stop's' are not likely to sack themselves for overspends, poor service quality, mismanagement etc. Hence the need for 'Whistle Blowers Legislation, and (b) there are supports in place in the PS for employees that may have problems, i.e. the E.A.P. for people who may have alcohol/drug, marital, financial problems etc., which may distract and detract from there normal employment duties, and this programme does assist in the reolution of problems.

The problem at present is that people in the PS are all being tarred as Roddy 'FAS' and others such like persons when in effect he probably represents a small %. He deserves to be sacked but isn't. Would it be right if everyone compared you guys to Seanie Fitz.

[Arabella]

In terms of efficiency of the public service in my opinion the systems of bureaucracy are much more of a problem actual under performance from employees. Things, even seemingly small straight forward tasks, take longer to do in the PS and understandably this frustrates those who you are supposed to be delivering a service to. There is the danger that these systems can (and in many cases have!) become a mind set that is very hard to change in some PS workers. It stifles creativity and drive in workers and encourages the mentality of “this is how it has always been done, why change?” An overhaul of the system is much more essential than getting rid of workers.

As touched on earlier in the discussion it easy to forget about the amount of PS employees that are on contract. Many county councils have stopped all renewal of contracts since before Christmas. While it is necessary to cut costs in the PS it’s very frustrating to see extremely competent people being lost while permanent underperformers can stay on but having worked in private and public organisations as far as I can see this is a problem that’s not confined to the private sector.

Also, despite prevalent public employee bashing (rather that the system), for every story about a slacker in PS you can usually find one about employees that go above and beyond and genuinely care and try to deliver the best service possible. While there is no need to heap on the praise, comments like hiberates on page 2 of this discussion are such a kick in the teeth for such people. It may be in jest but sweeping generalisations are not helpful.

[Odyessus]

In terms of efficiency of the public service in my opinion the systems of bureaucracy are much more of a problem actual under performance from employees. Things, even seemingly small straight forward tasks, take longer to do in the PS and understandably this frustrates those who you are supposed to be delivering a service to. There is the danger that these systems can (and in many cases have!) become a mind set that is very hard to change in some PS workers. It stifles creativity and drive in workers and encourages the mentality of “this is how it has always been done, why change?” An overhaul of the system is much more essential than getting rid of workers.

As touched on earlier in the discussion it easy to forget about the amount of PS employees that are on contract. Many county councils have stopped all renewal of contracts since before Christmas. While it is necessary to cut costs in the PS it’s very frustrating to see extremely competent people being lost while permanent underperformers can stay on but having worked in private and public organisations as far as I can see this is a problem that’s not confined to the private sector.

Also, despite prevalent public employee bashing (rather that the system), for every story about a slacker in PS you can usually find one about employees that go above and beyond and genuinely care and try to deliver the best service possible. While there is no need to heap on the praise, comments like hiberates on page 2 of this discussion are such a kick in the teeth for such people. It may be in jest but sweeping generalisations are not helpful.

There are of course people in the public service doing an excellent job in difficult circumstances, and as you say, sometimes going beyond the call of duty. It is their interests, as well as those of the public at large, that the wasters be weeded out.

[Arabella]

of course i agree with you Odyessus - i just mean that its imperative that the stifling bureaucracy that currently in place needs to be addressed first and foremost before the weeding out can start

[Ah Well]

Worked in a council a few years ago.
It was frowned upon if you did more work than was required.

Thanks for the honesty .... confirms what I knew already when dealing with a specific part of a specific department of a specific local authority when 5 years later things weren't progressed as they should have been ... that post would fit perfectly to the particular circumstances of my experience