ICTU accused of misleading analysis of Irish wages and public spending

[patslatt]

See today's Independent article by Cathal O'Loughlin,former Assistant Secretary with the Department of Finance and Director of the IMF 'White lies' are informing the partnership discussions - Irish, Business - Independent.ie.

Quote:
"The enormity of the challenges demands that all face up to realities honestly. But some at the social partnership talks are dishing out seriously-misleading "facts" to bolster sectional interests.

"What "big lies"? Three stand out.

"First, the ICTU claims that Irish labour costs are low relative to those elsewhere - when, in fact, they are among the highest in the EU. "


I suppose many people regard public sector trade union announcements as just a lot of hot air and special interest pleading,but still unions ought to have some respect for the facts.

[Kevin Doyle]

O'Loughlin even used weighted averages! The far more accurate kind, or so we're told. As used by the Benchmarking body. So his figures must be right!

Careful what you wish for Joe, the article wasn't a benchmarking exercise, I know you're prone to conflating issues but O'Loughlin's weighted averages actually lends weight to the arguement that there is little if any disparity in pay.

He's calling for massive salary reductions in the Private sector, that means you.

[Mar Tweedy]

See today's Independent article by Cathal O'Loughlin,former Assistant Secretary with the Department of Finance and Director of the IMF

I suppose many people regard public sector trade union announcements as just a lot of hot air and special interest pleading,but still unions ought to have some respect for the facts.

He's a Director of the IMF so just like any other interest group he is using the statistics that back up his already established ideological point of view.

Of course ICTU will also have reliable properly researched statistics to back up what they are saying. I'm sure they will respond in depth to this piece.

I think its an example of group-think. A well paid cadre at the top of both private and public sector genuinely believe that everyone in Ireland is well paid because they move in well-paid circles, frequent establishments where the well paid hang out and have no real contact with those who aren't well paid. Sports clubs and pubs have all sorts of course, but no one advertises their low pay or financial difficulties, do they? Just like the politicians, this group have lost touch with the reality for the majority of people.

[sparkey321]

Of course ICTU will also have reliable properly researched statistics to back up what they are saying. I'm sure they will respond in depth to this piece.

That would be a first.

ICTU are the masters of playing the numbers game to present what they want. Did anyone for one second believe that Irish wages are low compared to the European average ?

[Leftfemme22]

That would be a first.

ICTU are the masters of playing the numbers game to present what they want.

So are IBEC and the IMF

Did anyone for one second believe that Irish wages are low compared to the European average ?

I read a post here yesterday from someone whos company independantly reviewed costs across Europe and found Irelands Wage costs favourable.

Their findings tend to support ICTU's claim.

We'll have to wait and see how ICTU responds to Mr O'Loughlins contentions.

[Leftfemme22]

He's a Director of the IMF so just like any other interest group he is using the statistics that back up his already established ideological point of view.

Another slavo in the propaganda war. Interestingly timed in effect to lesson support for ICTU's protest tomorrow.

I've always been dubious of the claims by IBEC that salaries are the single most important factor in lost competitiveness. In my view its the indirect stealth taxes that place an unequal burden on the cost of business in this country.

The CSO has been found wanting in many of its reports, why are its figures still considered sacrosanct? A fact not lost on many posters here.

O'Loughlins arguement is itself a projection of sectional interest, he wants to drive down salaries in all sectors, keep taxation stagnant if not lowered without any call on business to substantially reduce their prices in line or help in lowering the cost of living here.

Without actually factoring in cost of living then wage levels (in direct comparison) don't portray the reality of the primary consideration in all this, mainly standards of living.

Ireland made some inroads in that department during the Tigers years but duely piddled it away as prices went through the roof. The rip off culture in this country is staggering.

Where the cost of living here slashed by 20% would anyone have a problem or indeed an argument against slashing salaries across the board by a similar amount.

[Mar Tweedy]

And all in ICTU are fair-minded neutrals, untainted by ideology?

Here's a recent example of Jack O'Connor's charmingly post-ideological thought process:

"Unfettered capitalism is no fairer than socialist totalitarianism. It is quite clear that the dictatorship of free marketeerism is no more efficacious for the problems facing humanity than the experiments in building socialism without democracy."

I'm sure the former gulag detainees feel a lot better after hearing that. Think of how bad it could have been for them in the dystopia of unfettered capitalism, they could have like had their house repossessed or something?

I thought it was implicit in what i wrote that interest groups are motivated by ideology - its just its ALL interest groups. The IMF and other neo-liberally minded bodies etc like to present their information as if they are ones who are presenting the truth and facts of the case and the others are motivated purely by ideology. They do the same thing except their ideology is about enriching the few so no wonder they try and present it as ideology-free.

Whatever about getting into a disagreement about gradations of suffering caused by different systems, it is clear that the communist model and the unregulated neo-liberal market models have got a big fat fail.

The Scandinavian model of social democracy seem to be surviving the credit crisis relatively well. And pay in Ireland is definitely lower than pay rates in those countries.

[Leftfemme22]

Listen, if I end the year without having incurred a 100% pay cut I'll be happy.

Ah yes, the put and shut up argument- aren't you lucky to have a job...

Doesn't surprise me, one would expect nothing less from a conquered people.

[Leftfemme22]

Listen, if I end the year without having incurred a 100% pay cut I'll be happy.

Oh, and by the way, for someone so concerned about their job you seem to have lots and lots of free time to post here during normal working hours.

Strange that..

[Leftfemme22]

1. Say ICTU get their way and tax is substantially increased, up to 48%.

Result: we all end up with a large drop in disposable income.

2. Say instead IBEC get their way, and all salaries are reduced by 10%.

Result: we all end up with a large drop in disposable income.

Which approach is preferable?

ICTUs, because the 48% rate of tax will not effect the lower paid. Cutting all salaries by 10% will. IBECS approach facilitates a race to the bottom.

The wealthy- (and that includes me) are going to have to suck it up and pay more, much more, 48% is not enough it needs to go to 55% on a progressive scale. There is no where to hide any more, they will not be allowed to get away scot free.

Its as simple as that.