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Thread: Ireland inc a TRILLION euro in debt....

  1. #1
    Politics.ie Regular BodyofEvidence's Avatar
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    Ireland inc a TRILLION euro in debt....

    A nice scary piece in the Times today by Brian Lucey and Constantin Gurdgiev....
    Problems in real economy dwarf those of bank sector - The Irish Times - Tue, Feb 03, 2009
    Proposals circulating at the partnership talks contain at best only peripheral ideas on repairing the real (non-financial) side of our economy. Yet the magnitude of the debt problem facing these core sectors is simply staggering and dwarfs that of the banks.

    According to the latest figures from the International Monetary Fund and the Bank for International Settlements, total gross indebtedness of Irish residents, that is the State, the banks and the non-financial personal and corporate sector, stood at a gargantuan €1,671 billion at the end of 2008. This is over eight times national income, and compares to a mere €504 billion at the end of 2002 and €970 billion at the end of 2005. The greater part of the rise in this debt arises not from the State – its debt merely doubled from €27 billion in the fourth quarter of 2005 to €51.2 billion by the third quarter of 2008 (or €77.1 billion if the monetary authority liabilities are added) – but from the private sector.

    The debt owed by the private sector rose from €876 billion to €1,594 billion over the period. Much of this represents real borrowings by Irish people and companies. As of September 2008, €591.2 billion in debt securities was outstanding by non-financial domestic companies – up from €473.6 billion in December 2006. Overall foreign claims on the Irish economy stood at a gargantuan seven times our national income. In absolute terms, this mountain of debt is one-sixth of the USA’s and greater than that owed by Japan.

    On any reasonable metric, Irish households and indigenous companies are the most indebted in the entire EU. Put more starkly, when it comes to overall solvency prospects for Irish consumers and small and medium enterprises, we are ranking dead last across Europe.
    and

    A further worry is the structure of this borrowing. Again from IMF data , as of June 2008, Irish borrowers had outstanding €69 billion in domestic and €194 billion of international debt securities with a remaining maturity of 12 months or less, implying that the Irish corporate and personal economy faced a total debt payment bill of some €263 billion in July 2008-July 2009 alone. Of this €65 billion is maturing corporate debt. Adding in interest payments, this implies that the Irish corporate and personal sector faces finding close to €300 billion in total redemptions over that period. That is a real credit crunch. Such a burden can only lead to increased bankruptcies, and we already see this feeding throug
    and
    In 2008 Irish companies were nearly five times more likely to go bankrupt than they were in 2002. Latest figures show that some 21 per cent of Irish companies have negative balance sheet net worth, with total company assets having fallen below company liabilities. The corporate economy as a whole is technically insolvent, but not necessarily bankrupt if, and it is a big if, it can generate enough cashflow to keep servicing the debt.
    and
    We must also ensure that taxpayers’ funds used for bank recapitalisation deliver an added benefit of helping to deleverage Irish household balance sheets. One example is to recapitalise via a voucher-type approach. This would involve the State issuing shares to the banks, which would then be used for recapitalisation. These would be transferred directly to Irish households, improving their long-term financial positions and in future generating capital gains receipts for the exchequer.

    To prevent short-termism and the re-inflation of the credit bubble these would have to be held for a defined period of time; no personal lending which used them directly or indirectly as collateral would be possible.

    A further problem is that this private debt can, in part, easily end up as public debt. That part of the private sector indebtedness outstanding to the Irish banking sector is covered by the Government guarantee. In addition, as corporate and personal defaults grow, so too grows the hole which the bank recapitalisation is intended to fill. Both, ultimately, end up increasing State liabilities and the cost of State borrowing. This in turn results in a need for further deflation via reduced State expenditure and increased taxes and charges, weakening still the non-financial sector. A malign cycle emerges. To counter this, a swift and early action is required to restore Irish households’ confidence in our future and their own ability to withstand the crisis. However, to date swift action has not been a hallmark of this Government. It remains to be seen if any action will be take.

  2. #2
    Politics.ie Regular seabhcan's Avatar
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    There are a couple of threads on this already. Most of this 'debt' represents hedge funds managed in the IFSC. Its probably that even if every one of these went belly up it wouldn't matter to Ireland Inc because we are not liable. (if we still had our own currency it would matter - we'd be like Iceland, but the euro protects us - which is why these hedge funds are here in the first place)

    If you rent a house to someone, their credit card debt isn't counted on your balance sheet.
    "Who will bailout the IMF after FF is finished with them?"

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    Politics.ie Regular BodyofEvidence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seabhcan View Post
    There are a couple of threads on this already. Most of this 'debt' represents hedge funds managed in the IFSC. Its probably that even if every one of these went belly up it wouldn't matter to Ireland Inc because we are not liable. (if we still had our own currency it would matter - we'd be like Iceland, but the euro protects us - which is why these hedge funds are here in the first place)

    If you rent a house to someone, their credit card debt isn't counted on your balance sheet.
    Read the article
    "Much of this represents real borrowings by Irish people and companies. As of September 2008, €591.2 billion in debt securities was outstanding by non-financial domestic companies – up from €473.6 billion in December 2006."

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    Are we going to be the Argentina of Europe? Has Iceland already claimed that dubious crown? I recently discovered an article from the Indo from 2004 that vaunted us as the 'third freest economy in the world'. Iceland was the number one 'most free'. So I guess we're all going to be bankrupt. That's what you get for sanwitching yourself between the UK and the USA, ideologically.

    I guess modern conservative fiscal policy really is dead and buried. Goodbye Reagan, Thatcher and Milton Friedman. Goodbye Chicago school and Pinochet. If I ever meet someone who describes himself as a free-market economist, I am going to punch him in the nose.

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    Is intercompany debt also included? My feeling is that yes it is, or maybe that is a hope, otherwise we are rightly screwed.

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    Politics.ie Regular Fear Dorcha's Avatar
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    Ireland is on top again! On debt per capita that is. If this website is accurate we owe a staggering $450,000 and we rank second only to Iraq on debt per $ GDP at allmost $7500. The total debt on the site is at the $1.85 trillion mark so I suppose this is where the IT got the info from. Maybe its time to emigrate .... to Iceland!

    Edit to include link : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ec...-debt-external

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    Politics.ie Regular BodyofEvidence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher1 View Post
    Is intercompany debt also included? My feeling is that yes it is, or maybe that is a hope, otherwise we are rightly screwed.
    In another (professional) life I had the data on that - its large, but as in about 100b pa over the 2003-6 period . Not an issue here

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    Politics.ie Member DaBrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyofEvidence View Post
    A nice scary piece in the Times today by Brian Lucey and Constantin Gurdgiev....
    Problems in real economy dwarf those of bank sector - The Irish Times - Tue, Feb 03, 2009


    and



    and


    and

    Ireland's total debt has remained over a Trillion Euros for years, I remember seeing stats mentioning it in 2006.

    I think this means now we should focus on the Diaspora Option; this will help us socially,culturally and economically like David McWilliams has suggested!

    The Generation Game pointed out many things saying that this would happen.

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    Politics.ie Member Digout's Avatar
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    Proof that the Septic Tiger never really existed, it was all just a massive loan. Now we got to pay for the party and we cant do it.

    Well done ahern and Cowen.

  10. #10
    Politics.ie Regular seabhcan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear Dorcha View Post
    Those figures look bogus. For example, they seem to be adding in all corporate, banking and personal debt for the UK's figure, but only government debt for the US.
    "Who will bailout the IMF after FF is finished with them?"

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