Public Sector V's Private

[sparkey321]

Public V’s the private sector.

Over the last week or so I have been spending quite a bit of time in the car so unusually for me I have been listening to allot of radio. While I was aware of a huge public V’s Private sector argument on here I had not actually realised just how much of a division there is.
Listening to the radio and trying to remain an objective outsider I was amazed and the lack of rational and the blinkered approach from both sides.

The people calling for 20% pay cuts, 20% lay offs need to sit down take a breath and cop on.

The unions take the view that it’s not their fault that the economy is suffering so why should they suffer.
The “private sector” creamed it during the good years and gave nothing back so let them pay now.
The private sector dodged paying taxes and squired billions into foreign bank accounts where they are now sitting around in the sun drinking champagne.
The Private sector caused this huge property bubble that had nothing to do with the unions or the public sector workers.
Capitalist economics resulted in poor regulation that allowed this to happen.
The banks caused the problem and the government is bailing them out.

Firstly and most importantly because the union leaders don’t seem to grasp this fact.

The large portion of private sector workers did poorly out of the boom. The vast majority of private sector workers are PAYE workers who paid all their taxes.
The vast majority of private sector workers earn under the average industrial wage.

Now down facts

The public sector did not cause the current economic problem ! Not single handed they didn’t but they did play an active part.
We had a housing boom for two reasons. One vast amounts of cheap credit. And 2 people willing to pay crazy prices for houses, flats and apartments.
The public sector bought these houses and took the credit so they are as culpable as the private sector.

The person or group responsible for ensuring that the banks operated correctly was the financial regulator who is are a public sector body.

OK the banks acted irresponsibly, accepted, and that was wrong but their shareholders didn’t complain at the time. Those share holders are pension funds and individuals who as likely as not were public sector workers as private sector workers.

The public sector also fought hard for and got raises in pay, increased budgets and more employees. They used budget surpluses as an argument to get these. Surpluses that were generated by a housing bubble they claim no part of. A boom they now decry as capitalist stupidity. I don’t recall them complaining at the time.

We (as in Ireland) now has a fixed cost that is way above its income. 20 billion of this fixed costs in the public sector pay bill.

Oh the private sector has its responsibilities also but for the vast majority they have no more responsibility than the vast majority of public sector workers. A small percentage of people made vasts amounts of money sure but allot of these have lost vasts amount of money over the last 6 months.

Ok the banks are in crisis but that didn’t cause the economic collapse, its a symptom of the economic collapse. They are now being bailed out because the alternative is just not an option.

Senior management are walking away, some with massive payouts but then again the same is true in the public sector, look at FAS, the financial regulator and various other public sector employees. It’s not right in the private sector but it’s also not right in the public sector either.

The reality is that 100’s of thousands of private sector employees. Ordinary men and women on ordinary incomes have lost their jobs and thousands continue to do so every day.
The reality is they thousands more are on short time working hours, have taken drops in pay and had their terms and conditions changed.
The reality is that every week thousands of companies are loosing money and going under.
The reality is that there is a huge hole in the public finances.

It’s too late to go looking for money from the developers, they have either lost it all or gone. Increasing taxes will generate some revenue but with a falling workforce there is a limit to how much money can be generated this way.

The reality is that increasing taxes on companies will only shut down more of them and make the situation worse. Sure some companies are still making profits and were able to pay the increases on time but the vast majority are not.

Ireland is loosing money every day literally millions by the hour and it will just not be possible to borrow it all. Cuts have to be made. Accept it.

We have heard the arguments, some of them are even valid, but valid or not the facts stand. The country is loosing money fast and cannot keep borrowing. We will eventually run out and then there will be no money to pay anyone.

The public sector did well out of the boom, in fact the average public sector worker did vastly better then the average private sector worker. You were more than happy to take your share of the good.. Now it’s time for your share of the bad.

[Factorem]

The sooner people set their differences aside and unite against this inept government, better.

It's in everyone's interests to wipe FF off the map once and for all.

[West Cork Kerryman]

Agree with most of both the previous points - but there is always the danger of mixing up separate arguments viz

It is not the fault of the Public Sector (directly) that the US toxic debt caused a global slump causing eventually the inevitable chickens coming home to roost in Ireland associated with inept government, fraudulent banking etc etc.

However this has nothing to do with the separate question as to how to set public sector pay. The private sector can generally set it by virtue of saying if you ask too much no-one will hire you or if you pay too much for staff then you will most likely not be able to sell your stuff and go bust etc. Therefore a proper benchmarking exercise would have been a good idea if the intangibles/peripherals i.e. security of tenure/pension/holidays/sick had been taken into account. Right now non-government backed pensions are getting wasted and security of tenure can be shown to have a value. QED if Public Sector are paid ~20% more than private sector beforeperipherals then they must take a pay cut of greaterthan 20%.

This should be done. Likewise the wiseasses in the banking world should go to prison, likewise Anglo & the associated developers should have been left go down. But both should be done - this is not a zero sum game

[peadarmc]

On RTE now...more job losses....320 gone from Bus Eireann!

[adamirer]

Public V’s the private sector.

The public sector bought these houses and took the credit so they are as culpable as the private sector.

The public sector also fought hard for and got raises in pay, increased budgets and more employees. They used budget surpluses as an argument to get these. Surpluses that were generated by a housing bubble they claim no part of. A boom they now decry as capitalist stupidity. I don’t recall them complaining at the time.

Ok the banks are in crisis but that didn’t cause the economic collapse, its a symptom of the economic collapse. They are now being bailed out because the alternative is just not an option.

Senior management are walking away, some with massive payouts but then again the same is true in the public sector, look at FAS, the financial regulator and various other public sector employees. It’s not right in the private sector but it’s also not right in the public sector either.

You were more than happy to take your share of the good.. Now it’s time for your share of the bad.

Another thread on this, ok, to take some of your points as a typical mid wage public sector employee.

a) the public sector are no different to the private sector in that you pay the price of a house when you go to market. We dont lve in an alternative universe, we paid the same price and took the same mortgages as everyone else. What do you expect us to have done?

b) the 83+ government TDs decide to set up agencies etc, not the public service. Every organisation looks to increase their part of the pie as they feel their sector is most important. Every private company does the same. The more you have, the more of your policies you can carry out. Theres nothing wrong with that. The housing bubble was created by banks, developers and estate agents. The public and private sector employee did not have any choice in that... nor did the opublic sector organisations have any desire for it.

c) The banks absolutely did cause the economic collapse. They, worldwide, lent recklessly and that greed caused huge damage first with NRock, then the big American banks and then the domino through even more responsible banks. The credit issues was caused by bad banking, not just here, globally. Most of the troubles stem from that.

d) 3% of the civil service can possibly earn a 100k+ salary. I dont condone Molloy at FAS, but his golden handsake is a f***load less than the €1m+ we see in private companies. The reality is the SUV mums dropping kids to push private schools are not married to nurses, cops and civil servants. The guys in 08 2.5L mercs are not nurses, cops and civil servants. The people who did make a killing through the boom are not nurses, cops and civil servants. We're normal people on normal salaries.

e) Our share of the bad comes with the same higher taxes we pay, the fear with our spouses, partners families and friends, the same cut services to education, hospitals. We lose our own money in share collapses. Many on fixed length contracts will not see their contracts renewed. We pay the same bills to the same companies and the same mortgages to the same banks. We have the same overheads.

We are, despite much of the hysteria, not really that different.

'if you cut us, do we not bleed?'

[adamirer]

On RTE now...more job losses....320 gone from Bus Eireann!

shock... a ... wait for it.. public sector company!

[Rebel CNC]

It's in everyone's interests to wipe FF off the map once and for all.

Tell that to public sector workers - Benchmarking Bertie threw big pay rises at them on the back of a one off windfall tax from the construction boom and the old work practices, security of tenure, defined benefit pensions were untouched.

Now that Revenue stream has dried up but Cowen and Co seem to be in no hurry to benchmark the public sector against the new reality.

A public servant is currently paying less for his/her mortgage/loans and 2003 prices for motor fuel (although civil service mileage rates haven't changed of course), they have a job for life and a secure pension. Why wouldn't they vote FF?

[peadarmc]

shock... a ... wait for it.. public sector company!

That was indeed my point exactly! Although i figure theres too much bad news around to start a thread detailing this! Theres only so much gloom we can all take surely!

[Rebel CNC]

shock... a ... wait for it.. public sector company!

I'll wait for the details of the redundancy package before I express any shock!!

Let me guess - voluntary scheme which will be taken up by people aged 55+ who will maintain their defined benefit pension and probably walk away with six weeks pay for every year worked with no cap.

[Tressell]

I'll wait for the details of the redundancy package before I express any shock!!

Let me guess - voluntary scheme which will be taken up by people aged 55+ who will maintain their defined benefit pension and probably walk away with six weeks pay for every year worked with no cap.

And would you begrudge someone as described above getting such a scheme, or would you prefer a person 30 something, with 3 or 4 kids and a mortgage getting let go, twat.