Any bets on the size of Public Sector pay cuts?

[Kevin Doyle]

WTF are you blathering about. The government can of course impose pay cuts if it so wishes, but the workers can also withdraw their labour if they so choose. There is no legal/constitutional impediment to paycuts. Get a grip FFS.

So its not illegal to cut someones pay without consent?

[smitchy2]

That's where you are completely naive. The public sector is not reliant on the the private sector. Quite the opposite in fact. Private property could not exist with out the state. Do you think the rich and petit bourgeoise can hold onto their businesses without the guards and army for example? Only with the consent of the state can they exist. You also have to remember that under capitalism the public sector is forbidden from entering profitable production of goods and services. According to your minimal logic a private sector doctor pays for a doctor in the public sector. Also public sector workers are much more important to the functioning of society. Doctors, nurses, teachers, social workers etc are essential workers. Somehow the same cannot be said of marketing firms and insurance salesmen. Huge amounts of the employment in the private sector is completely worthless and is only employment for one individual's gain.

Thanks for a large number of assumptions.
I did say the public sector is “largely” reliant on taxes collected in the private sector in various forms to fund investment and payroll which help to improve services.

I am sure your socialist ideas are great on paper but they work properly in reality as various countries have illustrated.

In the real world how do you propose we continue to spend €48bn on our public service each year?

[BodyofEvidence]

In real terms there are currently reductions of probably just under 10% already in place for Civil Servants.

There will be no cuts to pay rates for serving Civil Servants without consent as to reduce wages without consent is illegal.

I think that this was done in the 30;s so probably not.
Brian Lucy from Trinners was arguing for 10% min last night on TV3.

[Big Bobo]

Thanks for a large number of assumptions.
I did say the public sector is “largely” reliant on taxes collected in the private sector in various forms to fund investment and payroll which help to improve services.

I am sure your socialist ideas are great on paper but they work properly in reality as various countries have illustrated.

In the real world how do you propose we continue to spend €48bn on our public service each year?

Well the shortfall isn't €48 billion so let's get that clear.

IBEC and their unelected sects such as the SFA and ISME think they have a right to dictate the pay of the public sector. They are obviously backed up by the O'Reilly gutter press. They cannot be trusted to speak on behalf on public interest and they only care about their own profits.

I honestly don't understand the right wingers on their public sector crusade sometimes. Obviously you all despise trade unions and workers rights and are resentful that ordinary workers get pensions and paid holidays. But surely you don't get out of recession by cutting pay? Pay cuts would lead to less disposable income leading to less trade in goods and services. This will become entangled in the vicious circle of job losses and decreased tax revenue. Somehow I think the pro-rich politicians like Richard Bruton and IBEC are more worried about a raise in the corporation tax. They would rather see pay cuts for workers than see themselves or their fellow millionaires pay a cent more.

What Ireland needs now is investment. A huge public works program to upgrade infrastructure must take place. This would more than pay for itself over time. Tens of thousands of jobs would be created while the country would become more "competitive". Existing jobs and conditions must be defended at all costs. The fact that the government is prepared to stand by and watch Waterford Crystal go to the wall is wrong both economically and morally. Anglo-Irish gets €1.5billion yet when the government has a chance to directly save jobs they turn their face away. The banks must be nationalised immediately. Only by taking banks into public control can investment be planned for the long-term. No more loans to cowboy developers. The lisbon treaty must be rejected. This country cannot afford to have its transport and what remains of the family silver forcibly flogged off to profiteers.

[Keith-M]

I doubt it will be a blanket percentage. I think it may be a pay freeze for lower earners, and 5% to 10% for those earning 50k or more.

[smitchy2]

Well the shortfall isn't €48 billion so let's get that clear.

IBEC and their unelected sects such as the SFA and ISME think they have a right to dictate the pay of the public sector. They are obviously backed up by the O'Reilly gutter press. They cannot be trusted to speak on behalf on public interest and they only care about their own profits.

I honestly don't understand the right wingers on their public sector crusade sometimes. Obviously you all despise trade unions and workers rights and are resentful that ordinary workers get pensions and paid holidays. But surely you don't get out of recession by cutting pay? Pay cuts would lead to less disposable income leading to less trade in goods and services. This will become entangled in the vicious circle of job losses and decreased tax revenue. Somehow I think the pro-rich politicians like Richard Bruton and IBEC are more worried about a raise in the corporation tax. They would rather see pay cuts for workers than see themselves or their fellow millionaires pay a cent more.

What Ireland needs now is investment. A huge public works program to upgrade infrastructure must take place. This would more than pay for itself over time. Tens of thousands of jobs would be created while the country would become more "competitive". Existing jobs and conditions must be defended at all costs. The fact that the government is prepared to stand by and watch Waterford Crystal go to the wall is wrong both economically and morally. Anglo-Irish gets €1.5billion yet when the government has a chance to directly save jobs they turn their face away. The banks must be nationalised immediately. Only by taking banks into public control can investment be planned for the long-term. No more loans to cowboy developers. The lisbon treaty must be rejected. This country cannot afford to have its transport and what remains of the family silver forcibly flogged off to profiteers.

I know the shortfall is not €48bn but that is the amount that was spent last year on the public sector so if you don’t think private sector taxes fund this where will the money come from??

It is not necessarily direct pay cuts needed first but scrapping all unnecessary overtime and unfortunately making redundancy in all QUANGOS not needed.

Keeping Anglo alive was wrong.

Waterfood Crystal was goosed for a long time- O’ Reilly has lost hundreds of millions trying to save it. Luxury products not selling in good times was bad- it did not have a hope over the next couple of years.

A huge public works programme is already underway- it’s called the NDP and it will be delayed due to lack of taxes.
Such a programme did not work in Japan in the 90’s and I reckon the US is going to find that out soon enough as well- although there are some good things in such a plan.
Do you really want a government to waste more of taxpayers money on over inflated under budgeted projects??

[riker1969]

I doubt it will be a blanket percentage. I think it may be a pay freeze for lower earners, and 5% to 10% for those earning 50k or more.

Going by your success rate (FG 2007) in Predictions then there will be no pay cuts!

[DeathKnell]

I know the shortfall is not €48bn but that is the amount that was spent last year on the public sector so if you don’t think private sector taxes fund this where will the money come from??

It is not necessarily direct pay cuts needed first but scrapping all unnecessary overtime and unfortunately making redundancy in all QUANGOS not needed.

Keeping Anglo alive was wrong.

Waterfood Crystal was goosed for a long time- O’ Reilly has lost hundreds of millions trying to save it. Luxury products not selling in good times was bad- it did not have a hope over the next couple of years.

A huge public works programme is already underway- it’s called the NDP and it will be delayed due to lack of taxes.
Such a programme did not work in Japan in the 90’s and I reckon the US is going to find that out soon enough as well- although there are some good things in such a plan.
Do you really want a government to waste more of taxpayers money on over inflated under budgeted projects??

Smitchy, man, you have over 500 posts, so you know what Bobo is about.. So why even entertain his delusions..?!?!?

[the crimson chin]

What Ireland needs now is investment. A huge public works program to upgrade infrastructure must take place. This would more than pay for itself over time. Tens of thousands of jobs would be created while the country would become more "competitive". Existing jobs and conditions must be defended at all costs. The fact that the government is prepared to stand by and watch Waterford Crystal go to the wall is wrong both economically and morally. Anglo-Irish gets €1.5billion yet when the government has a chance to directly save jobs they turn their face away. The banks must be nationalised immediately. Only by taking banks into public control can investment be planned for the long-term.

Hmmm I agree with you on one thing Big Bobo, now the government should be spending money on big infrastructure works. However, how many civil servants are needed for this? A small percentage. The others should be either trimmed or take a pay-cut. I also agree that the government shouldnt intervene in buying out Anglo Irish. But then you propose Nationalising the banks, which in essence means the government buying out the banks, which to be honest contradicts your distane for them buying Anglo shares. Make up your mind. Also I dont see how it would ever gain from buying Waterford Crystal which is clearly unprofitable, just for the sake of keeping a few more people in labour. It might as well just give them the dole rather than investing in an enterprise which is unsuccessful and have them manufacturing goods for which there is no market anymore.

We do need investment and the government should be spending money on Education, Infrastructure, and anything that makes Ireland competitive again. But if you understand the concept of a opportunity cost, we must forgo paying inflated prices to most public sector employees in order to finance these more benefical projects.

[Big Bobo]

Hmmm I agree with you on one thing Big Bobo, now the government should be spending money on big infrastructure works. However, how many civil servants are needed for this? A small percentage. The others should be either trimmed or take a pay-cut. I also agree that the government shouldnt intervene in buying out Anglo Irish. But then you propose Nationalising the banks, which in essence means the government buying out the banks, which to be honest contradicts your distane for them buying Anglo shares. Make up your mind. Also I dont see how it would ever gain from buying Waterford Crystal which is clearly unprofitable, just for the sake of keeping a few more people in labour. It might as well just give them the dole rather than investing in an enterprise which is unsuccessful and have them manufacturing goods for which there is no market anymore.

We do need investment and the government should be spending money on Education, Infrastructure, and anything that makes Ireland competitive again. But if you understand the concept of a opportunity cost, we must forgo paying inflated prices to most public sector employees in order to finance these more benefical projects.

I'm talking about nationalisation without compensation. It's time the people dertimined the use of the nation's capital and not a few parasite bankers.