Give and Take For Public sector Pay cuts!

[Dreaded_Estate]

I didn’t move the goal posts, it’s not my fault you are incapable of following a train of thought, I have been consistent in saying you cannot quantify risk. You can assign a value to the probability of an outcome but you cannot quantify risk. Ask any mathematician.

I think you are confusing what risk means to econimists as opposed to what it means in mathematics. In decision theory and estimation theory it is the expected value of the loss function.

I am a mathematician and work in risk management Kevin. To be told it it is impossible to do something that I do on a daily basis is very weird!

I think you have gone down a line of argument that risks cannot be quantified just to justify your opinion that security of tenure cannot be valued and your are only willing to deviate regardless of the facts.

[Dreaded_Estate]

So you are saying the public servants agree to a new basic pay that is 75% of the existing rate for the job? Not practical.
Again we come back to the thorny subject of 'performance' and how to measure it The only way to legally base payment on performance is to measure the work to be performed by an agreed formula, essentially what used to be called piece-rate. That could not be done in the public service, far too complex and the cost of implementation and administration would be enormous.
The only system that could be applied is a motivational one based on MBO. However, this has serious potential problems particularly when employees doing the same work are receiving different wages.

I was just using the figures to illustrate the point. I'm not suggesting the split should be 75-25.

I have worked in various professional jobs and a proportion of my pay has always been based on performance. Team managers should set targets and performance against those targets. It doesn't have to be formula based for it to work. Why can't it work in the pubic sector.

I see nothing wrong with people doing the same job receiving different wages. If one has performed better they should be paid more.

[hopi watcher]

I was just using the figures to illustrate the point. I'm not suggesting the split should be 75-25.

I have worked in various professional jobs and a proportion of my pay has always been based on performance. Team managers should set targets and performance against those targets. It doesn't have to be formula based for it to work. Why can't it work in the pubic sector.

I see nothing wrong with people doing the same job receiving different wages. If one has performed better they should be paid more.

Basing portion of pay on performance works in some cases but not in all. All monetary reward most certainly has to be formula based otherwise some employees would be discriminated against as the payments would be subjective. I am surprised to hear that you worked in such circumstances were you were unaware as to how exactly your remuneration was calculated.
You may see nothing wrong with people doing the same job getting different wages, but the law does. It is illegal. To be within the law, the job must have a base rate which is applied to all and thereafter bonus can be earned by a peice rate system That is to say, an open and transparent system with a mathimatical basis

[Dreaded_Estate]

Basing portion of pay on performance works in some cases but not in all. All monetary reward most certainly has to be formula based otherwise some employees would be discriminated against as the payments would be subjective. I am surprised to hear that you worked in such circumstances were you were unaware as to how exactly your remuneration was calculated.
You may see nothing wrong with people doing the same job getting different wages, but the law does. It is illegal. To be within the law, the job must have a base rate which is applied to all and thereafter bonus can be earned by a peice rate system That is to say, an open and transparent system with a mathimatical basis

Two people doing the same work should earn the same amount not but not two people in the same role.

A mathematical formula is too just too rigid to be efficient.
Although discrimination is possible it would be up to the supervisors of the team leaders to oversee it and there could always be a complaint procedure.

I do agree with you that implementing a performance based system isn't going to be easy. But I think it is the best way to lower the overall public sector wage bill without having to resort to across the board cuts.

[hopi watcher]

Two people doing the same work should earn the same amount not but not two people in the same role.

A mathematical formula is too just too rigid to be efficient.

I do agree with you that implementing a performance based system isn't going to be easy. But I think it is the best way to lower the overall public sector wage bill without having to resort to across the board.

I don't follow your first sentence. Either they are doing the same job or they are not. The job carries the rate.

It is because mathimatical formula is rigid that that is what must be used. As much as is possible, all subjective elements must be removed to aviod such as favouratism. There is always an element of subjectivity present, even in work study the engineer uses a rating system as part of the formula to arrivew at a time, but this rating must be recorded for scruntiny. It often happens that this rating various however it is a small element of the overall formula and a good engineer will always use it to achieve the best result. Remember too tight a time is counter-productive as the employee soon becomes disheartened and output falls away.

You are right about the introduction of a performance based system and I am of the view it will never be tried.

[Oppenheimer]

I don't follow your first sentence. Either they are doing the same job or they are not. The job carries the rate.

It is because mathimatical formula is rigid that that is what must be used. As much as is possible, all subjective elements must be removed to aviod such as favouratism. There is always an element of subjectivity present, even in work study the engineer uses a rating system as part of the formula to arrivew at a time, but this rating must be recorded for scruntiny. It often happens that this rating various however it is a small element of the overall formula and a good engineer will always use it to achieve the best result. Remember too tight a time is counter-productive as the employee soon becomes disheartened and output falls away.

You are right about the introduction of a performance based system and I am of the view it will never be tried.

A formula would be too complicated, as DE puts it however, if the procedure has a complaint process attached, in addition to it being signed off by the supervisor's supervisor and the HR dept (or equivalent) then the process is also open and scrutinised with those responsible for maintaining fairness.

[Dreaded_Estate]

A formula would be too complicated, as DE puts it however, if the procedure has a complaint process attached, in addition to it being signed off by the supervisor's supervisor and the HR dept (or equivalent) then the process is also open and scrutinised with those responsible for maintaining fairness.

Exactly, how it is handled in most companies around the country. There is no reason why it can't work in the public sector.

[Leftfemme22]

I am a mathematician

But of course you are.......... *rolls eyes*