Reactionary public sector unions prevent efficient delivery of public services

[hopi watcher]

Public works and infrastructural projects would add enormously to the productive capacity of the economy,maybe 25%, as infrastructural bottlenecks and deficits were cleared in mororways,rail,broadband,ports,key airports,sustainable energy and energy conservation projects. Keynesian stimulus is needed to jumpstart the economy out of recession. As long as there is economic slack,public works pay for themselves as people are put back to work in an economic revival,with a multiplier effect boosting consumer spending and private investment. Of course,once recovery is well underway,public works spending needs to be cut back,something governments have great difficulty with,hence the bad name given to Keynesianism in the 1970s inflations.

This is utter nonsense. It is very sad to see that we still have people about the place that cannot see the human dimension to all this. Suggesting the 50,000 people dumped onto the dole in the present climate would easily find work is infantile. The failure to see or understand the deep damage that would occur within the community in such circumstances renders everything you say irrelevent.

[irish_bob]

Simplistic at best.

The resultant loss of spending power will have a huge knock on effect in the wider economy. Social welfare will take a hammering. It will be much more than just jobseekers allowance. It would be insane to remove the spending power of 50,000 state employees at a time when the retail and services sector are dying on their feet.



Most publics servants work hard enough. If you strip out such a huge number from the Public service, the remainder will be overwhelmed and most services will grind to a halt. Essential services in particular will be hardest hit as it is these public servants who by and large work the hardest as it is.

those who work in administration in the civil service do not work hard enough , in fact many of them dont actually have anything to do , they are there so as to keep unions of the phone to politicians and keep votes for the same politicians

[hopi watcher]

those who work in administration in the civil service do not work hard enough , in fact many of them dont actually have anything to do , they are there so as to keep unions of the phone to politicians and keep votes for the same politicians

How do you know this? Details please.

[irish_bob]

How do you know this? Details please.

i know it because a jack russell and two labradors i met on the street told me

[hopi watcher]

i know it because a jack russell and two labradors i met on the street told me

In other words, your source is gossip.

[patslatt]

This is utter nonsense. It is very sad to see that we still have people about the place that cannot see the human dimension to all this. Suggesting the 50,000 people dumped onto the dole in the present climate would easily find work is infantile. The failure to see or understand the deep damage that would occur within the community in such circumstances renders everything you say irrelevent.

Economics is not called the dismal science for nothing. It helps to evaluate difficult and hard choices about scarce resources,including money. Maintaining full public sector employment with an €8 billion deficit this year and maybe €12 billion next year would be a bad choice. Those figures work out at roughly €8,000 and €12,000 respectively for a family of four.

A better choice is to begin a recovery programme through Keynesian stimulus programmes. Generally,I'm against that but the economy desperately needs the jolt of demand stimulus in the perfect storm of an international economy in freefall. And the financing can't come from big tax increases. Choices must be made and business as usual,the default choice,is no longer feasible.

[hopi watcher]

Economics is not called the dismal science for nothing. It helps to evaluate difficult and hard choices about scarce resources,including money. Maintaining full public sector employment with an €8 billion deficit this year and maybe €12 billion next year would be a bad choice. Those figures work out at roughly €8,000 and €12,000 respectively for a family of four.

A better choice is to begin a recovery programme through Keynesian stimulus programmes. Generally,I'm against that but the economy desperately needs the jolt of demand stimulus in the perfect storm of an international economy in freefall. And the financing can't come from big tax increases. Choices must be made and business as usual,the default choice,is no longer feasible.

You advocate a slash and burn approach to the public sector payroll. When asked to quantify the result you slip seamlessly into more waffle and jargon. Once again the impact on the lives of all those that you propose to take out of work would be catastrophic, both for them and the community as a whole. It would drastically reduce money in circulation and impact sharply on the already spending capacity within the economy. In short, it would be a seriously negative retrograde step.

[Pauli]

Economics is not called the dismal science for nothing. It helps to evaluate difficult and hard choices about scarce resources,including money. Maintaining full public sector employment with an €8 billion deficit this year and maybe €12 billion next year would be a bad choice. Those figures work out at roughly €8,000 and €12,000 respectively for a family of four.

A better choice is to begin a recovery programme through Keynesian stimulus programmes. Generally,I'm against that but the economy desperately needs the jolt of demand stimulus in the perfect storm of an international economy in freefall. And the financing can't come from big tax increases. Choices must be made and business as usual,the default choice,is no longer feasible.

Keynesian stimulus programmes?? I am very happy to see, patslatt, that you have finally arrived at the conclusion that neo-liberalism has been a total failure and has, like communism, been brilliant on paper but that is where it should have remained. The destruction of neo-liberalist Friedmanism has been long overdue but, as Ireland will experience in 2009, its death and burial will have bitter consequences for those economies which most aped the US model, like ours.

The most important change which will need to take place is reform of the private sector. The public sector will have to accomodate a reformed private sector where the imperative should be to give proper service, unlike in Ireland where ripoff is the natural instinct. First, however, we need to bin the likes of Harney and other unapologetic neo-liberalist failures and get them out of our decision-making processes because by keeping them in situ, they are a serious impediment to necessary change. Yesterdays people must be disposed of, starting with her.

[sparkey321]

Give a cost of 50,000 on the dole. And then give us some estimation of the damage that would be done to the fabric of our society. Or perhaps you have some other solution in mind

And how much damage will be done by raising an extra 12 billion per annum in taxation ??

Because lets call a spade a spade here, that is what you are proposing.

Either that or borrowing untill the country is declared bankrupt and can raise no more external funding.

[Kevin Doyle]

And how much damage will be done by raising an extra 12 billion per annum in taxation ??

Because lets call a spade a spade here, that is what you are proposing.

Either that or borrowing untill the country is declared bankrupt and can raise no more external funding.

Balancing the books will have to be a combination of the two. Raising taxes and specifically taxes on the higher paid by way of a progressive taxation policy and a curb in public spending. That does not mean shedding thousands of jobs in the public sector, there are plenty of vanity projects currently in the works that will need immediate evaluation combined with a pay freeze and a possible wage cut for those on the higher end of the pay scales.

But it is essential that the folly of low income tax strategies be stripped out of the economic planning for the short, medium and long term. Those who can afford to pay are going to have to pay. It’s that simple.

Those demanding the slash and burn of the public sector are mute on the issue of tax reform.

Not surprising really considering their agenda is not one of national interest as opposed to personal or vested interest. You cannot expect the public sector to carry the can for the folly of the private sector whilst those responsible are not forced to re-compensate in some shape or form.