Another public sector reform thread: the negative impact on private sector

[Leftfemme22]

It is lean in the sense that we don't want the state to run all aspects of our lives and baby us as in the Continental EU welfare states.

Who is this 'we'? How do you know what the Irish people want? Have you asked them all?

The Irish people want good public services, they've been duped by PD wingnuts like you into thinking that that can be achieved cheaply, it can't. Furthermore you haven’t the slightest clue where to begin so target the Public Sector en masse and advocate wild pay cuts across the board totally ignorant to the devastating effect that would have to the economy and to the vast number of families who would have to suffer as a result.

You can bleat your idiotic musings till the cows come home, but the fact remains that the majority of civil and public servants earn a reasonable wage, they do not earn excessive amounts of money and by and large are scrapping by in a country that is prohibitively expensive to live in. There is no latent unrest in what you call the private sector toward the Public Sector, that idiotic sentimentality is just being fostered by ideologues such as you who quite simply see your potential to profit from the Public sector wither as economic realities overtake Chicago school clientelism.

You, your ideology and your incessant ‘competition is the cure for all ills’ mantra are on the wane and have been spectacularly exposed as dangerously idiotic and a catastrophic failure in the very territories you are now trying to hold up as the example the Irish should be following.

Would you ever give it a rest?

[Maximo]

Pay levels for the public sector need to be cut. The Benchmarking programme was a farce designed to buy union votes. It increases pay when private sector pay is increasing but wants nothing to do with private sector pay decreases and loss of bonuses.

If the public sector insists on jobs for life and gold plated pensions for the extremely high percentage of the sector (relative to the private sector) on $50,000 to 100,000 a year,then the value of those privileges need to be costed in pay comparisons with the private sector.

The rocketing Irish unemployment figures underlines the value of jobs for life, which could be worth 12% to 15% of pay. When middle aged business people lose their jobs,they often have to start their next job with a big drop in pay.

The gold plated pensions allow many highly paid public sector workers to make more money on their pensions than they made while working,while taxes are imposed on private sector workers with poor pension provision to pay for it. How much are those pensions worth as a percentage of annual pay? Compared to a private sector salary,I'd guess 15% of salary.

So the twin privileges of jobs for life and gold plated pensions could be worth up to 30% of annual pay compared to private sector pay.

The Benchmarking exercise was supposed to achieve equal pay with comparable private sector jobs,but despite this advantage of 30%,public sector basic pay is about 25% higher than the private sector's average pay,and 55% higher including the 30%.

This contrasts with the UK where private sector basic pay is higher than the public sector's. Is the UK public sector less efficient for that? Are the services of hospitals,schools and police less efficient there?

Why does Irish public sector pay have to be so much higher? Do the jobs require more education and training? Or are the standards set artificially high by vested interests in order to manipulate pay?

A good example of pay manipulation by trade unions was the Brussels creation of a four year nursing degree for a EU wide nursing qualification. The UK did not join in on this in order to keep nursing pay from rising excessively. Why should nursing training which was done largely through apprenticeship a generation ago now require four years of college? Wouldn't two years be enough?

I have to agree. A similar situation was allowed to develop with the Academy of Medical Scientists. A quango union style professional body. They carried out a similar brussles creation of a jacked up profession. The academy carries out hospital tests, but wont allow other science degrees in practical disciplines such as biochemistry and microbiology to work in a hospital. The UK nor Spain (and perhaps other countries) have followed this approach and instead will allow a variety science degrees to work in a lab. This situation is deeply unfair.

A science graduate say in Biochemistry can go work in a Uk hospital but cant work in an Irish hospital.

[BluntGuy]

I think this sums up my opinion pretty well, it's taken from one of the links posted earlier in this thread...

The cushioned class are the padded public sector class. And I do not mean frontline workers like gardai, teachers and nurses. I mean the thousands of functionaries whose functions are mysterious to outside observers -- as indeed they are to themselves when they take a minute to think about it.

This cushioned class -- which includes some of the staff of RTE -- will live comfortably through this recession, while the coping class will live in struggle and stress. And that is not sharing the pain. Accordingly, the only way the Government will win back public trust is to take on that padded public sector and make them march for their money.

[ibis]

Why should nursing training which was done largely through apprenticeship a generation ago now require four years of college? Wouldn't two years be enough?

That is really the kind of question that answers itself. Has medicine changed much over the intervening generation?

[Question R24U]

Any chance we could leave the usual rants aside and address the thread title? So far the views indicate minimal problems.

[patslatt]

Who is this 'we'? How do you know what the Irish people want? Have you asked them all?

The Irish people want good public services, they've been duped by PD wingnuts like you into thinking that that can be achieved cheaply, it can't. Furthermore you haven’t the slightest clue where to begin so target the Public Sector en masse and advocate wild pay cuts across the board totally ignorant to the devastating effect that would have to the economy and to the vast number of families who would have to suffer as a result.

You can bleat your idiotic musings till the cows come home, but the fact remains that the majority of civil and public servants earn a reasonable wage, they do not earn excessive amounts of money and by and large are scrapping by in a country that is prohibitively expensive to live in. There is no latent unrest in what you call the private sector toward the Public Sector, that idiotic sentimentality is just being fostered by ideologues such as you who quite simply see your potential to profit from the Public sector wither as economic realities overtake Chicago school clientelism.

You, your ideology and your incessant ‘competition is the cure for all ills’ mantra are on the wane and have been spectacularly exposed as dangerously idiotic and a catastrophic failure in the very territories you are now trying to hold up as the example the Irish should be following.

Would you ever give it a rest?

What the Irish wanted in the last General Election was Fianna Fail for its promise of steady economic management,not a Scandinavian or French Super welfare state.

As for the financial industry meltdown,that resulted principally from three sources: right wing antiregulatory ideology in Wall Street and London financial markets that was accepted by the US and the UK governments in their anxiety to remain dominant in international finance; excessively low interest rates in the EU and the USA that created speculative bubbles in property and finance;and excessive export led growth strategies in developing countries based on suppressed interest rates. The latter fed speculation in property and finance, too rapid growth in money supply and dangerous inflations. With all of these asset bubbles now burst,it will be difficult to avoid many years of economic stagnation.

As for public sector pay excesses,most of the excess is concentrated: the Independent recently pointed out that in the €50,000 to €100,000 a year pay range,the percentage earning in that range is vastly higher than in the private sector,not to mention public sector jobs for life and gold plated pensions. Yet in the UK which is a good comparison,public sector pay generally is lower than in the private sector. Of course,lefties like you have a hatred of inconvenient facts like this.

[patslatt]

That is really the kind of question that answers itself. Has medicine changed much over the intervening generation?

Two year diplomas should be enough. Of course, if some specialised nurses want to be mini-doctors and the doctors agree to it, then those specialised nursing qualifications should be the same as a couple of years training for doctors with the same rigorous entry standards. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[patslatt]

I have to agree. A similar situation was allowed to develop with the Academy of Medical Scientists. A quango union style professional body. They carried out a similar brussles creation of a jacked up profession. The academy carries out hospital tests, but wont allow other science degrees in practical disciplines such as biochemistry and microbiology to work in a hospital. The UK nor Spain (and perhaps other countries) have followed this approach and instead will allow a variety science degrees to work in a lab. This situation is deeply unfair.

A science graduate say in Biochemistry can go work in a Uk hospital but cant work in an Irish hospital.

Do you know what additional studies a biochemist or microbiologist would have to do to become a Medical Scientist?

[southwestkerry]

Being a well known fan off public sector kicking I would tend to agree with most off what you say, that said however we also need to be realistic at what can be achieved. 30% cuts would not work as we would have wide spread strikes so perhaps a more measured move such as a 7%-10% cut from top rates only while concentrating on scrapping totally pointless sectors would be better.... one for the chop is certainly FAS that should be abolished over a a time scale of say 5 years to be replaced with job centers, 3rd level can be dependent on to fill the void.

[Furze]

....... the same rigorous entry standards. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing......

600 pts - keep the dope in publically funded private school till he makes it. Then let foreign students subsidise his Med training and finally let him piss off to the States cause the public service dosn't pay.