Budget 2009 revealed: Sindo

[hiding behind a poster]

There must be no increases in income tax, as this happened in the 1982-7 govt and led to a doubling of unemployment to 18%. The private sector should not be made suffer for the waste of the pampered public-sector. 60% of govt spending is public-sector pay, so a massive privatisation programme is needed to bring the public finances back into equilibrium. FF should resist a post-PD urge to revert to its old Social Democratic 'Big Government' ways, lest they meet the fate of the FG-Lab govt of 1987.

FT, do you have some facts to back up your assertions about the link between unemployment and income tax? And are your comments even based on experience or memory of those times or just folk tales handed down to you by geezers in pubs? I lived through the 80s and talk of a doubling in unemployment under the FG/Labour doesn't sound at all accurate to me.

http://indexmundi.com/ireland/unemployment_rate.html

The FG/Lab government was elected in Nov 82 so they can hardly be held solely or even mostly responsible for the rate in 1982. So the rate they started with was close to 12%, and when they were voted out it was just under 17%, that's not even a 50% increase not to mind a doubling. It was a mess for sure and one I would have preferred we had done different things to resolve but let's not dirty the water with all this hysteria that the 80s were all about the bad things that coalition did while others did great things. Life isn't as simple as you would like it to be be, and most grown-ups know that.

Also, privatisations that might be possible would not be in the labour intensive areas of the public sector and so would have minimal impact on public sector pay. And fact is what outsourcing there has been in many public sector areas has lead to increased costs to the taxpayer and poorer quality standards (hospital cleaning anyone?). I'm not opposed to privatisation in principle but it should only be done if the numbers add up long term and it doesn't lead to private monopolies replacing public ones (Eircom?)

Interesting that yet again FutureTaoiseach hasn't replied to you, KK? You've asked him this before, and I've asked him many times to back up the lies he tells about the Irish economy in the 1980s with actual facts - but every time we do, he just f*cks off, only to subsequently spout the same lies on another thread in the future. Utterly tiresome and predictable behaviour from Tory Boy.

[goosebump]

FG proposed sacking 3 Junior ministers and their entourages. A Junior Minister costs about 500k for their office staff (not including their salary) year.
1,500,000 per year times 5 equals to 7,500,000 per the lifetime of the govt. Exhibit A m'lud.

Do you understand the meaning of the word 'material'?

[expat girl]

Even if the proceeds from privatisations were below expectations due to the downturn, the privatisations themselves would still save the taxpayer many billions if they included all the semi-states (except Iarnroid Eireann which I would retain in State hands). That is an important part of resolving the deficit issue.

Listen, idiot, if you want to flog state assets, do it when the price is high, not when no-one is able to pay because they can't get a loan

Does any one have a basic grasp of supply and demand any longer???

[greengoose]

Even if the proceeds from privatisations were below expectations due to the downturn, the privatisations themselves would still save the taxpayer many billions if they included all the semi-states (except Iarnroid Eireann which I would retain in State hands). That is an important part of resolving the deficit issue.

Listen, idiot, if you want to flog state assets, do it when the price is high, not when no-one is able to pay because they can't get a loan

Does any one have a basic grasp of supply and demand any longer???

Yes indeed; one Michael O'Leary.

[de knowledge economy]

Privatise national assets while nationalizing builder's debt (ftb , affordable housing scheme) and bankers debt.
The communist system collapsed, now we are seeing the collapse of the american laissez-faire capitalist system started by
reagan and thatcher.
Where do we go from here, maybe the present German model seems to be doing well, you earn what you make by working hard, not by speculation, you try to plan things, you have laws that are enforced, you respect scientists, engineers, what else?

[KingKane]

A) blaming FF isn't going to get anybody anywhere
B) the electorate was given a choice 15 months ago and re-elected FF
C) we still need more houses, just less each year
D) we have a massive infrastructural deficit that any half-way intelligent builder could capitalise on, but won't because the profit level percentages don't hit 3 figures!
E) cutting the capital budget is not going to solve this problem, whereas freezing wages and social welfare payments will
F) the HSE needs more than 1,000 jobs cut in admin
G) the construction industry has NOT collapsed, the private sector speculative construction sector has collapsed.
H) has anybody got anything constructive to contribute?

With the nature of construction, you can't get the local builders to be simply redeployed to building motorways. That requires more specialised skills. However they could easily work on building renovating much of our educational infrastructure. A diversion into the school building program from some of the road based aspects of the NDP would actually support local employment and also we should be able to driver better deals now that 2/3 years ago. We do need things building and now is a good time to go looking for a bargain.

[KingKane]

FG proposed sacking 3 Junior ministers and their entourages. A Junior Minister costs about 500k for their office staff (not including their salary) year.
1,500,000 per year times 5 equals to 7,500,000 per the lifetime of the govt. Exhibit A m'lud.

Do you understand the meaning of the word 'material'?

Kill the metro, I love the idea of it but the numbers don't add up. Blanket the routes with buses, extend the Dart from Malahide to the airport. Reform local government and have a set portion of income tax go directly to these reformed local structures to provide local services. Create a form of property tax for 3rd and subsequent properties. Most landlords are contributing next to nothing to the provision local services in the areas where they have rental properties.

[lowtaxireland]

Good old FF, built a house of cards and never thought a gust of wind could possibly come a blowing. Can we have a parlimentary inquiry into the government and central banks actions leading to this now severe recession? Im sure FF will try to stabalise things and rewrite history by time of next GE but don't think they will manage it this time. They'll still probably end up in government again, with Labour or SF or somesuch. The only TDs I have any faith in regarding the economy are Ruari Quinn and Bruton. Lenihan and Cowan are not competent to run finance, they just listen to the civil servants and do what suits their party/tribe.

I seem to remember at the last election that FG and Labour were not exactly fortright in their economic warnings. I still remember Pat's tax-cutting proposals.

Wrong. FG and Labour did not have access to statistics other than those provided by the Government. They made it clear that they were outlining policy proposals if the statistics supplied by the government were right, but they stressed it was if. Richard Bruton had for years stressed that he had severe doubts as to the reliability of government presumptions, but had not access to the Department of Finance information to query those statistics. Previously governments provided unfettered access to the Department of Finance to the opposition in the run up to an election to allow them to know if government figures were the truth. FF chose not to provide that access. We can now see why. They could not risk letting someone like Richard Bruton see the true numbers.

What has happened is a total indictment of Cowen's period as Minister for Finance. Rarely in economic history has someone managed to turn so much potential into so little. Cowen and his colleagues will be condemned by history for destroying what should have been the future wealth of Ireland through chronic bad judgement and bad policy.

So watch as FF, true to form, looks for scapegoats - the international community, the media for 'talking down the economy', Fine Gael, you name it. Fianna Fáil isn't the Republican Party - it is the Passing the Buck Party.

You didn't need statistics to see that things were getting dodgy, The fact is that the oppostion had a chance to show real leadership and failed- rather than take a chance that people might rewards realism, they hid behind the FF numbers like cowards. This does not surprise me since it is more or less the same configuration of paries who caved into the nurses to buy industrial peace before their last election while in power, and it is also the same configuration of parties who kicked the Hep C victims from one court to another. These people are dirt.