Union wage demands to amplify "wave of creative destruction"

[hopi watcher]

Joseph Schumpeter,the Austrian economist,colourfully noted "capitalism's waves of creative destruction",the Darwinian process in which weak and uncompetitive firms and even whole industries are wiped out. This destruction usually reaches its heights in recessions. It is creative in that elimination of weak firms through competitive market pressures makes room for more efficient firms to take over the markets vacated by the weak firms,enabling greater economies of scale and cost efficiencies. It is a very unpleasant experience,as Ireland learned in the 1980s. At times,the economic destruction can be so great as to threaten economic collapse but this has the advantage of concentrating the minds of governments,businesses and workers on their economic survival.

Today,Ireland's experience of the credit crunch and weak export markets have started a new bout of creative destruction. Likely candidates for destruction include financially burdened property developers,house builders and building supply companies,expensive restaurants,pubs,at least one of the expensive franchised grocery chains,possibly a bank or two and labour intensive unionised businesses.

As for the latter,with the breakdown in social partnership,Irish unions have said they will demand wages greater than inflation even though in our principal export markets,such as the US and Britain,wage increases are less than inflation. Such wage demands would only amplify creative destruction in the export dependant economy of the private sector,promptly putting unionised workers out of work. The private sector unions would quickly find themselves mugged by economic reality.

In the public sector, unions will have to realise that the ATM wage increase machine has broken down,since government deficit spending is limited to 3% by Brussels. The government may even be forced to introduce redundancies for the public sector. Alternatively,it could postpone programmes for needed infrastructure and other essential spending for the long term future in order to fund generous pay increases. However,if it did that,it would be hooted out of office by the media and business for gross neglect of the national interest,while the unions' wage grab would be seen as looting the treasury.

1. They have said they could accept LESS than the rate of inflation, as David Begg explained yesterday on This Week.

2. Your definition of "generous wage increases" to ordinary people is the money they need to pay their rent/mortgage, and live. What do you suggest people do? Starve? Not pay their rent/mortgage and sleep on the streets? Run their car on air? Your supposed 'generous' wage increases are simply the amount of money they need to make ends meet. For a low paid worker (and BTW most public sector workers are low paid. The cr*p about averaging it out and saying the entire public sector is mathematical nonsense, as well you know) not getting the rate of inflation is simply not an option. That pay increase won't get them new cars or fancy holidays. It will simply allow them to pay their bills. Or do you suggest public sector workers go into shops and ask to pay lower prices for things on the basis that they are a public sector employee.

I don't think the unions in general will bargain for less than inflation,witness the aggressive demands of the banks' union in an industry that could collapse if bank share prices are an indicator.

As for pay increases,your perspective is that of a Celtic Tiger cub who doesn't realise there are business cycles and recessions.

The top economic priority is restore the competitiveness of our costs which are the highest in the EU. That has to mean a modest cut in pay in real terms given the spike in energy and raw materials costs. If pay rises to cover the cost spike,our cost increases will simply drive up unemployment. Better to keep your job on 97% of your salary than go on the dole.

Any chance that you enter the real world and address the questions raised in the post you are supposed to be replying to? How are people on the current minimum wage going to keep warm this coming winter? Bread and butter is the issue now thanks to the squandering of the recent boom in wealth creation much of which is now sitting in off shore bank accounts belonging to 'non-resident nationals'

How did they keep warm in the 1970s oil price spike when minimum wages were far lower?

Of course,since then,living standards have risen and some necessities have become more expensive,especially housing, thanks to a lack of planning for high densities.

A lot of the costs pressures on today's wage earners are self inflicted interest costs associated with massive personal credit card debt and mortgages on overpriced properties. In the cases of those who default because they haven't money to pay those debts,the financial system will have to accomodate them by reducing the debts to what they can pay or,in a minority of cases, the mortgage companies will repossess the houses at a loss. This will be painful debt restructuring but people who borrow heavily,or recklessly, should have been aware of the risks.

Without a penalty for taking on excessive risk,banks and consumers alike would behave like punters in a casino,leading eventually to economic collapse. As the economist Keynes said,when the operations of a banking system become like a casino,the result is likely to be dire.

Housing costs are a major hardship for many low income people. It's time the government demanded that the councils zone substantial high density housing to make it affordable to low and moderate income people. Dublin City Council should be forced to scrap its very big average flat size for new developments of 915 square feet,which will drive costs,prices and rents up by about a whopping 40%. Does the Council want to reserve living in the city for the top 10% or so of the income grouping?

As for minimum wages,raising them would be self defeating if it put people out of work in the weak economy,although it would benefit those who keet their jobs. The government should conduct a detailed study of the tradeoff between unemployment and minimum wage increases before an increase in minimum wages,if any. Aside from putting people out of work,a minimum wage set too high makes it hard for young people to get on the jobs ladder and gain experience. They may start out with McJobs where they learn workplace discipline,which usually enables them to go on from there to bigger and better things.

Finally,the government needs to freeze its stealth taxes on all those government services that disproportionately affect low income people. It has been pushing hard on stealth taxes for ten years now and needs to give it a rest.

Aside from the waffle, will you answer the question; How will those on minimum wages and less afford to keep themselves warm this coming winter with a freeze or cut in wages? Your comment about cost pressures being 'self inflicted' is a joke. Over charging and the pursuit of excess profit is the cause, as amply demonstarted by the splurge of price reductions by supermarkets having been exposed by the NCA. The housing crisis was caused again by the greed of those in the constuction industry.

[patslatt]

[quote=hopi watcher]

Joseph Schumpeter,t.

Aside from the waffle, will you answer the question; How will those on minimum wages and less afford to keep themselves warm this coming winter with a freeze or cut in wages? Your comment about cost pressures being 'self inflicted' is a joke. Over charging and the pursuit of excess profit is the cause, as amply demonstarted by the splurge of price reductions by supermarkets having been exposed by the NCA. The housing crisis was caused again by the greed of those in the constuction industry.

[/quote:1qvl6g5p]

The budget details are up to people themselves. They will have to watch the pennies on heating. I live in a centrally heated flat but I use the gas fired heating as little as possible,preferring an economic one bar of an electric heater-not that I'm financially hard pressed,it's just habit from my youth when Ireland was parsimonious,conditions today's spoiled and softie youth like you couldn't even comprehend.

Your talk of greed shows a complete lack of understanding of Economics 101. Open an economics text and then resume the discussion. The price cuts in supermarkets would never have happened without Aldi and Lidl,testimony to the value of competition.

[hopi watcher]

[quote=patslatt][quote=hopi watcher]

Joseph Schumpeter,t.

Aside from the waffle, will you answer the question; How will those on minimum wages and less afford to keep themselves warm this coming winter with a freeze or cut in wages? Your comment about cost pressures being 'self inflicted' is a joke. Over charging and the pursuit of excess profit is the cause, as amply demonstarted by the splurge of price reductions by supermarkets having been exposed by the NCA. The housing crisis was caused again by the greed of those in the constuction industry.

[/quote:2ybvb4yu]

The budget details are up to people themselves. They will have to watch the pennies on heating. I live in a centrally heated flat but I use the gas fired heating as little as possible,preferring an economic one bar of an electric heater-not that I'm financially hard pressed,it's just habit from my youth when Ireland was parsimonious,conditions today's spoiled and softie youth like you couldn't even comprehend.

Your talk of greed shows a complete lack of understanding of Economics 101. Open an economics text and then resume the discussion. The price cuts in supermarkets would never have happened without Aldi and Lidl,testimony to the value of competition.[/quote:2ybvb4yu]

You still haven't answered the question, How will those on low incomes keep warm this winter in the face of a pay freeze or the cut you advocate? No more waffle. Put another way, do you care?
How long are Aldi and Lidl in the Irish market? The cuts referred too are only happening now and that is as a result of the threat from the otherwise toothless NCA to publish the price comparisons between here and NI. And this episode proves beyond doubt something that most have suspected for some time now, Tesco and Dunnes do not compete on price here, which kinda blows a hole in your argument that once there's competition the customer will not be ripped off.

[patslatt]

[quote=hopi watcher][quote=patslatt][quote="hopi watcher":2za79r6h]

Joseph Schumpeter,t.

Aside from the waffle, will you answer the question; How will those on minimum wages and less afford to keep themselves warm this coming winter with a freeze or cut in wages? Your comment about cost pressures being 'self inflicted' is a joke. Over charging and the pursuit of excess profit is the cause, as amply demonstarted by the splurge of price reductions by supermarkets having been exposed by the NCA. The housing crisis was caused again by the greed of those in the constuction industry.

[/quote:2za79r6h]

The budget details are up to people themselves. They will have to watch the pennies on heating. I live in a centrally heated flat but I use the gas fired heating as little as possible,preferring an economic one bar of an electric heater-not that I'm financially hard pressed,it's just habit from my youth when Ireland was parsimonious,conditions today's spoiled and softie youth like you couldn't even comprehend.

Your talk of greed shows a complete lack of understanding of Economics 101. Open an economics text and then resume the discussion. The price cuts in supermarkets would never have happened without Aldi and Lidl,testimony to the value of competition.[/quote:2za79r6h]

You still haven't answered the question, How will those on low incomes keep warm this winter in the face of a pay freeze or the cut you advocate? No more waffle. Put another way, do you care?
How long are Aldi and Lidl in the Irish market? The cuts referred too are only happening now and that is as a result of the threat from the otherwise toothless NCA to publish the price comparisons between here and NI. And this episode proves beyond doubt something that most have suspected for some time now, Tesco and Dunnes do not compete on price here, which kinda blows a hole in your argument that once there's competition the customer will not be ripped off.[/quote:2za79r6h]

Do you see everything in black and white?In the past,Tesco and Dunnes competed on quality and convenience and to a lesser extent on price. That made sense given that the the Irish grocery market has strongly entrenched franchise chains that compete on convenient location while charging very high prices.So cutting prices sharply at Tesco would not have been rewarded with sufficient increases in market share given how strongly entrenched those franchises were.

However,at a certain intensity level of competition,companies must compete or see their market share reduced sharply, which would weaken their cost position further as overhead costs have to be absorbed on a reduced sales base. That level of intensity has increasingly been provided by Lidl and Aldi. All that was needed was for average Irish shoppers to sit up and take notice of them and indeed they are now flocking to them, pressured by the weak trend in wages coupled with high cost of living increases.

In NI and Britain,the groceries market evolved differently to here after the British government under Ted Heath abolished "Retail price maintenance" restrictions in the 1970s. This abolition allowed grocery chains to sell below cost and led to price wars that rationalised the industry around price competitive companies by driving out the high prices shops that competed mainly on convenient location. Ireland is now experiencing a price war but the franchise chains are so professional and entrenched that it is doubtful they will be driven out,although they may be forced to cull the lower volume shops and cut prices to an extent. This could mean that Ireland is permanently stuck with a higher groceries industry cost structure than the UK's,aside from higher Irish government imposed costs and energy costs. In the UK,a new price war is starting in response to Aldi and Lidl's strong growth in market share there too.

Shops competing on convenient location in Ireland aren't necessarily a bad thing:they suit people who can't afford cars, people who must commute long distances and have little time to shop and tourists unfamiliar with the country.

As for people keeping warm,in the 1970s people left on the central heating for about 30 to 45 minutes a day in winter to keep dampness from houses,if they were lucky enough to have central heating. If they used electric fires,it was one bar only and it was switched off a lot of the time.

Most people wore a lot of woolens,such as woolen suits and Aran pullovers. The body adjusts to a colder environment and it helps to reduce weight. Most shops stock only cotton now. Maybe there is a market opportunity for reviving old fashioned woolens!

[Leftfemme22]

[quote=patslatt][quote=hopi watcher][quote=patslatt][quote="hopi watcher":2dmwsbt1]

Joseph Schumpeter,t.

Aside from the waffle, will you answer the question; How will those on minimum wages and less afford to keep themselves warm this coming winter with a freeze or cut in wages? Your comment about cost pressures being 'self inflicted' is a joke. Over charging and the pursuit of excess profit is the cause, as amply demonstarted by the splurge of price reductions by supermarkets having been exposed by the NCA. The housing crisis was caused again by the greed of those in the constuction industry.

[/quote:2dmwsbt1]

The budget details are up to people themselves. They will have to watch the pennies on heating. I live in a centrally heated flat but I use the gas fired heating as little as possible,preferring an economic one bar of an electric heater-not that I'm financially hard pressed,it's just habit from my youth when Ireland was parsimonious,conditions today's spoiled and softie youth like you couldn't even comprehend.

Your talk of greed shows a complete lack of understanding of Economics 101. Open an economics text and then resume the discussion. The price cuts in supermarkets would never have happened without Aldi and Lidl,testimony to the value of competition.[/quote:2dmwsbt1]

You still haven't answered the question, How will those on low incomes keep warm this winter in the face of a pay freeze or the cut you advocate? No more waffle. Put another way, do you care?
How long are Aldi and Lidl in the Irish market? The cuts referred too are only happening now and that is as a result of the threat from the otherwise toothless NCA to publish the price comparisons between here and NI. And this episode proves beyond doubt something that most have suspected for some time now, Tesco and Dunnes do not compete on price here, which kinda blows a hole in your argument that once there's competition the customer will not be ripped off.[/quote:2dmwsbt1]

Do you see everything in black and white?In the past,Tesco and Dunnes competed on quality and convenience and to a lesser extent on price. That made sense given that the the Irish grocery market has strongly entrenched franchise chains that compete on convenient location while charging very high prices.So cutting prices sharply at Tesco would not have been rewarded with sufficient increases in market share given how strongly entrenched those franchises were.

However,at a certain intensity level of competition,companies must compete or see their market share reduced sharply, which would weaken their cost position further as overhead costs have to be absorbed on a reduced sales base. That level of intensity has increasingly been provided by Lidl and Aldi. All that was needed was for average Irish shoppers to sit up and take notice of them and indeed they are now flocking to them, pressured by the weak trend in wages coupled with high cost of living increases.

In NI and Britain,the groceries market evolved differently to here after the British government under Ted Heath abolished "Retail price maintenance" restrictions in the 1970s. This abolition allowed grocery chains to sell below cost and led to price wars that rationalised the industry around price competitive companies by driving out the high prices shops that competed mainly on convenient location. Ireland is now experiencing a price war but the franchise chains are so professional and entrenched that it is doubtful they will be driven out,although they may be forced to cull the lower volume shops and cut prices to an extent. This could mean that Ireland is permanently stuck with a higher groceries industry cost structure than the UK's,aside from higher Irish government imposed costs and energy costs. In the UK,a new price war is starting in response to Aldi and Lidl's strong growth in market share there too.

Shops competing on convenient location in Ireland aren't necessarily a bad thing:they suit people who can't afford cars, people who must commute long distances and have little time to shop and tourists unfamiliar with the country.

As for people keeping warm,in the 1970s people left on the central heating for about 30 to 45 minutes a day in winter to keep dampness from houses,if they were lucky enough to have central heating. If they used electric fires,it was one bar only and it was switched off a lot of the time.

Most people wore a lot of woolens,such as woolen suits and Aran pullovers. The body adjusts to a colder environment and it helps to reduce weight. Most shops stock only cotton now. Maybe there is a market opportunity for reviving old fashioned woolens![/quote:2dmwsbt1]

This is staggering whataboutery. As arguements go it is especially poor even from someone whose arguemetns are as generally poor as yours and is particularly laughable.

Competition but it's not really compettiton? Give me a break.

Stay away from the real world, your ideological pursuits most likely confine you to the murky depths anyway as I suspect you wouldn't dare share your opinions in daylight outside of an internet forum.

[feargach]

It is creative in that elimination of weak firms through competitive market pressures makes room for more efficient firms to take over the markets vacated by the weak firms,enabling greater economies of scale and cost efficiencies.

Schumpeter was probably right when he wrote that.

But in today´s globalised world?

Not a chance.

Think of a weak firm in a Western country with a high standard of living in 1960. It falls apart in a recession. What do the failed company´s investors do with their money now? Well the vast majority of the planet in 1960 is either in the stone age, or Communist. Going offshore entails high costs.

Practically, they´re better off re-investing their capital in a range of new firms in the same country. The death of a firm in the country thus frees up capital to be reinvested in the same country. Hence, creative destruction.

Fast forward to 2008. A weak firm dies, its investors want return on investment on the newly freed capital. The vast majority of growth occurs in foreign dictatorships and the more functional 3rd-world nations. The capital controls that trapped capital within national borders in 1960 are gone. Hence the money leaves the western country and goes where the growth is.

Nothing is created in the Western country as a result of the weak firm´s death, except misery.

[hopi watcher]

[quote=patslatt][quote=hopi watcher][quote=patslatt][quote="hopi watcher":11odl88q]

Joseph Schumpeter,t.

Aside from the waffle, will you answer the question; How will those on minimum wages and less afford to keep themselves warm this coming winter with a freeze or cut in wages? Your comment about cost pressures being 'self inflicted' is a joke. Over charging and the pursuit of excess profit is the cause, as amply demonstarted by the splurge of price reductions by supermarkets having been exposed by the NCA. The housing crisis was caused again by the greed of those in the constuction industry.

[/quote:11odl88q]

The budget details are up to people themselves. They will have to watch the pennies on heating. I live in a centrally heated flat but I use the gas fired heating as little as possible,preferring an economic one bar of an electric heater-not that I'm financially hard pressed,it's just habit from my youth when Ireland was parsimonious,conditions today's spoiled and softie youth like you couldn't even comprehend.

Your talk of greed shows a complete lack of understanding of Economics 101. Open an economics text and then resume the discussion. The price cuts in supermarkets would never have happened without Aldi and Lidl,testimony to the value of competition.[/quote:11odl88q]

You still haven't answered the question, How will those on low incomes keep warm this winter in the face of a pay freeze or the cut you advocate? No more waffle. Put another way, do you care?
How long are Aldi and Lidl in the Irish market? The cuts referred too are only happening now and that is as a result of the threat from the otherwise toothless NCA to publish the price comparisons between here and NI. And this episode proves beyond doubt something that most have suspected for some time now, Tesco and Dunnes do not compete on price here, which kinda blows a hole in your argument that once there's competition the customer will not be ripped off.[/quote:11odl88q]

Do you see everything in black and white?In the past,Tesco and Dunnes competed on quality and convenience and to a lesser extent on price. That made sense given that the the Irish grocery market has strongly entrenched franchise chains that compete on convenient location while charging very high prices.So cutting prices sharply at Tesco would not have been rewarded with sufficient increases in market share given how strongly entrenched those franchises were.

However,at a certain intensity level of competition,companies must compete or see their market share reduced sharply, which would weaken their cost position further as overhead costs have to be absorbed on a reduced sales base. That level of intensity has increasingly been provided by Lidl and Aldi. All that was needed was for average Irish shoppers to sit up and take notice of them and indeed they are now flocking to them, pressured by the weak trend in wages coupled with high cost of living increases.

In NI and Britain,the groceries market evolved differently to here after the British government under Ted Heath abolished "Retail price maintenance" restrictions in the 1970s. This abolition allowed grocery chains to sell below cost and led to price wars that rationalised the industry around price competitive companies by driving out the high prices shops that competed mainly on convenient location. Ireland is now experiencing a price war but the franchise chains are so professional and entrenched that it is doubtful they will be driven out,although they may be forced to cull the lower volume shops and cut prices to an extent. This could mean that Ireland is permanently stuck with a higher groceries industry cost structure than the UK's,aside from higher Irish government imposed costs and energy costs. In the UK,a new price war is starting in response to Aldi and Lidl's strong growth in market share there too.

Shops competing on convenient location in Ireland aren't necessarily a bad thing:they suit people who can't afford cars, people who must commute long distances and have little time to shop and tourists unfamiliar with the country.

As for people keeping warm,in the 1970s people left on the central heating for about 30 to 45 minutes a day in winter to keep dampness from houses,if they were lucky enough to have central heating. If they used electric fires,it was one bar only and it was switched off a lot of the time.

Most people wore a lot of woolens,such as woolen suits and Aran pullovers. The body adjusts to a colder environment and it helps to reduce weight. Most shops stock only cotton now. Maybe there is a market opportunity for reviving old fashioned woolens![/quote:11odl88q]

Imagine a self proclaimed economic whizz suggesting that in what is supposed to be a sophisticated economy, less well off people not able to afford fuel, should resort to wearing woolies in an effort to keep warm during the winter.
That book on economics you referred to, are you sure you read it and didn't eat it? You're not Mary Harney's husband by any chance, are you?

[patslatt]

[quote=hopi watcher][quote=patslatt][quote="hopi watcher":1qj90myp][quote=patslatt][quote="hopi watcher":1qj90myp]

Joseph Schumpeter,t.

Aside from the waffle, will you answer the question; How will those on minimum wages and less afford to keep themselves warm this coming winter with a freeze or cut in wages? Your comment about cost pressures being 'self inflicted' is a joke. Over charging and the pursuit of excess profit is the cause, as amply demonstarted by the splurge of price reductions by supermarkets having been exposed by the NCA. The housing crisis was caused again by the greed of those in the constuction industry.

[/quote:1qj90myp]

The budget details are up to people themselves. They will have to watch the pennies on heating. I live in a centrally heated flat but I use the gas fired heating as little as possible,preferring an economic one bar of an electric heater-not that I'm financially hard pressed,it's just habit from my youth when Ireland was parsimonious,conditions today's spoiled and softie youth like you couldn't even comprehend.

Your talk of greed shows a complete lack of understanding of Economics 101. Open an economics text and then resume the discussion. The price cuts in supermarkets would never have happened without Aldi and Lidl,testimony to the value of competition.[/quote:1qj90myp]

You still haven't answered the question, How will those on low incomes keep warm this winter in the face of a pay freeze or the cut you advocate? No more waffle. Put another way, do you care?
How long are Aldi and Lidl in the Irish market? The cuts referred too are only happening now and that is as a result of the threat from the otherwise toothless NCA to publish the price comparisons between here and NI. And this episode proves beyond doubt something that most have suspected for some time now, Tesco and Dunnes do not compete on price here, which kinda blows a hole in your argument that once there's competition the customer will not be ripped off.[/quote:1qj90myp]

Do you see everything in black and white?In the past,Tesco and Dunnes competed on quality and convenience and to a lesser extent on price. That made sense given that the the Irish grocery market has strongly entrenched franchise chains that compete on convenient location while charging very high prices.So cutting prices sharply at Tesco would not have been rewarded with sufficient increases in market share given how strongly entrenched those franchises were.

However,at a certain intensity level of competition,companies must compete or see their market share reduced sharply, which would weaken their cost position further as overhead costs have to be absorbed on a reduced sales base. That level of intensity has increasingly been provided by Lidl and Aldi. All that was needed was for average Irish shoppers to sit up and take notice of them and indeed they are now flocking to them, pressured by the weak trend in wages coupled with high cost of living increases.

In NI and Britain,the groceries market evolved differently to here after the British government under Ted Heath abolished "Retail price maintenance" restrictions in the 1970s. This abolition allowed grocery chains to sell below cost and led to price wars that rationalised the industry around price competitive companies by driving out the high prices shops that competed mainly on convenient location. Ireland is now experiencing a price war but the franchise chains are so professional and entrenched that it is doubtful they will be driven out,although they may be forced to cull the lower volume shops and cut prices to an extent. This could mean that Ireland is permanently stuck with a higher groceries industry cost structure than the UK's,aside from higher Irish government imposed costs and energy costs. In the UK,a new price war is starting in response to Aldi and Lidl's strong growth in market share there too.

Shops competing on convenient location in Ireland aren't necessarily a bad thing:they suit people who can't afford cars, people who must commute long distances and have little time to shop and tourists unfamiliar with the country.

As for people keeping warm,in the 1970s people left on the central heating for about 30 to 45 minutes a day in winter to keep dampness from houses,if they were lucky enough to have central heating. If they used electric fires,it was one bar only and it was switched off a lot of the time.

Most people wore a lot of woolens,such as woolen suits and Aran pullovers. The body adjusts to a colder environment and it helps to reduce weight. Most shops stock only cotton now. Maybe there is a market opportunity for reviving old fashioned woolens![/quote:1qj90myp]

Imagine a self proclaimed economic whizz suggesting that in what is supposed to be a sophisticated economy, less well off people not able to afford fuel, should resort to wearing woolies in an effort to keep warm during the winter.
That book on economics you referred to, are you sure you read it and didn't eat it? You're not Mary Harney's husband by any chance, are you?[/quote:1qj90myp]

People wore woolens up to the 1980s to save on home heating.That is a fact. I froze in friends' houses and in pubs where central heating was off, on returning from abroad, because I was no longer acclimatised to the Irish cold. Of course,young people today who have no experience of lean times or,God forbid,hard times,find this incomprehensible. The past is another country! In my childhood in rural Ireland,many people enjoyed a standard of living little better than Africa's. Try getting your contemporary sensibility around that.

[patslatt]

Hopiwatcher,

Your immature rant above won't conceal your ignorance of economics and markets. Read an Economic 101 text before your blogs make you look foolish again, unless of course you don't mind looking foolish, the Forum's Chief Idiot.

[junketman]

The unions need to play their part, everyone needs to play their part. But the lead must come from the government and the TDs each of whom should take a 10% pay cut because they are receiveing public money and since it seems the budget will be at least 10% smaller, then their pay should be 10% smaller (that's how pay related performance works isnt it, if the economy grows so does your salary, if the economy shrinks so also should your salary).