IBEC Proposal on Public Sector Pay Freeze

[atlantic]

Well when we had the boom your good lord and master showed us all what a brillant f------ business head he had ,but then again he bought the votes needed,to keep report reading pen pushing statisticians happy.Btw thats the type of attitude that has this a jukie welfare state ,bull************************ leftwing protectionist academics that would be afraid to stand up and take a chance and then sneer at someones misfortune or downfall in business.Gleefully talk to their friends about what an idiot he was.
[quote=Universal_001]

Less taxation,vat, prsi to the exchequer to pay the public sector spending.You see company increases output more vat ,more employed more income tax,employee prsi, employers prsi, more corporation tax.All to pay for your lovely wages.

Private sector will have job losses and payrises are going to stagnate for the next 2 - 3years.

How does this ^^^^^^

[quote:3fq3y7eu]The reins wil have to be pulled in on public sector pay .

Mean this ^^^^^

[/quote:3fq3y7eu]

So public sector employees should be punished for the business failures of the private sector?
You don't need pay cuts to save money from the public service.
It was the insane gambling of businessmen on property that helped get us into this mess, don't' expect the rest of us to pick up the bill for them.
Eveyone pays taxes, and us great unwashed don't have dozens of loopholes to get out of payin it.[/quote:3fq3y7eu]

[DaveM]

Why not share the pain by introducing a new 60% tax rate for prople making over 100K pa?

Because the people who get up into this kind of pay range are usually the ones creating business and jobs for others. Tax them this highly and they'll just up sticks and go elsewhere.

[riker1969]

IBEC have proposed that we should have a public sector pay freeze for the good of the country and for the life of me I can't think of any good reason to disagree with this proposal. Anybody care to change my mind?

Will they be practicing what they preach with a call for executive pay freeze?
...didn't think so.

IBEC calling for wage controls is not news, calling for limits on speculation, profiteering and excessive executive (and government) pay...now THAT would be news.

I remember when there was a slow down around 2001-2002 and IBEC called for wage restraint because it would affect our competitiveness. After the slow down and with a booming economy, IBEC again called for wage restraint because it would affect our competitiveness. If you're an average worker, IBEC wants you to show restraint all the time.

I've never heard IBEC once say that property developers or those who displaced Irish workers in favour of immigrant labour should show restraint as it would have long term affects on society and individual household's ability to plan for their economic future. (quote)

Well put! Property developers got away without paying any stamp duty. As I public servant I expect wage moderation. If we are having a freeze then lets all have it. All public sector workers pay taxes as PAYE workers. I know lots of private sector people who pay little tax because revenue dont pursue it or will be happy with a certain amount. My taxes also aid the private sector in countless ways.
Also if Private sector workers get increases-who do you think foots the bill eventually-you and I the consumer in higher prices from their employer.Wage moderation or freezes must apply to all.

[drbob1972]

So public sector employees should be punished for the business failures of the private sector?
You don't need pay cuts to save money from the public service.
It was the insane gambling of businessmen on property that helped get us into this mess, don't' expect the rest of us to pick up the bill for them.
Eveyone pays taxes, and us great unwashed don't have dozens of loopholes to get out of payin it.

no one is talking about punishing anyone, talk like that is just melodramatic to be honest, the point is that its private sector employees whom will bear the brunt of cuts and redundancies, 99% of whom had no responsibility for the current economic conditions in Ireland and the wider global economy, someone working on the production lines in Dell in Limerick or the chip fabs of intel is at a very substancial risk of lossing their job at present, are you saying its their fault ?

to be honest your coming across as a typical public employee whom seems to feel he is entitled to an equal salary and rises as his private sector counter part but is unwilling to accept the risk , and uncertainity that goes with private sector employee........ you want to have your cake and eat it and show it to you mates

[Universal_001]

Well when we had the boom your good lord and master showed us all what brillant f------ business head he had ,but then again he bought the votes needed,to keep report reading pen pushing statisticians happy.

If you wanna talk about reform of the public service I'm happy to discuss it, it clearly needs a more long term solution than this knee jerk call for pay cuts, I opened a thread on it that should still be in latest discussions.

Btw thats the type of attitude that has this a jukie welfare state ,******** leftwing protectionist academics that would be afraid to stand up and take a chance and then sneer at someones misfortune or downfall in business.Gleefully talk to their friends about what idiot he was.

I'm not sneering, I'm stating fact, property speculation helped get us into the mess were in, all the while they were trying to sell property as a get rich quick scheme to gullible fools who didn't know the market they were making the bubble bigger and bigger, all the while promising there would be a soft landing, they've nobody to blame but themselves.
The public sector has plenty of flaws, knee jerk pay cuts are not the solution to them, no more than random tax hikes are a solution to the current revenue losses.

If you think we are a junkie welfare state you have clearly never had to rely on welfare in Ireland...

no one is talking about punishing anyone, talk like that is just melodramatic to be honest, the point is that its private sector employees whom will bear the brunt of cuts and redundancies, 99% of whom had no responsibility for the current economic conditions in Ireland and the wider global economy, someone working on the production lines in Dell in Limerick or the chip fabs of intel is at a very substancial risk of lossing their job at present, are you saying its their fault ?

No, but our economy is built on a very unstable foundation, and short sighted calls for pay cuts are not going to sort the situation out.

[riker1969]

So public sector employees should be punished for the business failures of the private sector?
You don't need pay cuts to save money from the public service.
It was the insane gambling of businessmen on property that helped get us into this mess, don't' expect the rest of us to pick up the bill for them.
Eveyone pays taxes, and us great unwashed don't have dozens of loopholes to get out of payin it.

no one is talking about punishing anyone, talk like that is just melodramatic to be honest, the point is that its private sector employees whom will bear the brunt of cuts and redundancies, 99% of whom had no responsibility for the current economic conditions in Ireland and the wider global economy, someone working on the production lines in Dell in Limerick or the chip fabs of intel is at a very substancial risk of lossing their job at present, are you saying its their fault ?

to be honest your coming across as a typical public employee whom seems to feel he is entitled to an equal salary and rises as his private sector counter part but is unwilling to accept the risk , and uncertainity that goes with private sector employee........ you want to have your cake and eat it and show it to you mates

Jesus Im sick of Private sector workers acting as if they are all at risk or are all wealth creators. Most private sector workers are secure. Noone expects Unemployment to rise beyond 8%. Full employment is when we have 4% unemployment so get a grip. Some private sector workers take risks the vast majority dont and are in employment that is secure .

[drbob1972]

no one is talking about punishing anyone, talk like that is just melodramatic to be honest, the point is that its private sector employees whom will bear the brunt of cuts and redundancies, 99% of whom had no responsibility for the current economic conditions in Ireland and the wider global economy, someone working on the production lines in Dell in Limerick or the chip fabs of intel is at a very substancial risk of lossing their job at present, are you saying its their fault ?

No, but our economy is built on a very unstable foundation, and short sighted calls for pay cuts are not going to sort the situation out.

agree its unstable, have been of that opinion for some time now, however reducing (no one is saying paycuts, though i guess you could say that no increase whilst there is inflation is an effective cut) expenditure or at the very least not increasing it during a time of recession or deteriorating revenues be it in the public or private sector is very much the right thing to do.

personally i have had this year the lowest pay increase ever (3%) and i was one of very few to get any increase in my company, most got 0, only the top 10% got any increase at all........ am i happy about it ? not one bit, was it the right thing to do for the company ? yes i think it was, ergo i believe the same should apply to the public sector, the majority should be effectivly on freezes, the best performers, etc perhaps a small increase, however i also know that in the public service thats not possible as its an all or nothing........

[drbob1972]

Jesus Im sick of Private sector workers acting as if they are all at risk or are all wealth creators. Most private sector workers are secure. Noone expects Unemployment to rise beyond 8%. Full employment is when we have 4% unemployment so get a grip. Some private sector workers take risks the vast majority dont and are in employment that is secure .

i'm not for one moment saying that only private sector is wealth creation, much wealth creation would not be possible without the services / policies / actions of public servants, i think thats a very different point from the employment risk though.

Public servants simply are not made redundant, rolls may be but the people are simply moved to other rolls, public service reductions in head count are done but either early retirements, hiring freezes or vol redundany, the concept of involentary redundancies within the public sector are simply unheard of, there is simply no (or almost no) risk to employment security for public sector workers.

to your point that most private sector employment is secure, statistically speaking that is correct, however the risk and uncertainity can be very very stressful, i know a lot of people whom are genuinely worried about their future stability (myself included), whether it will happen or not does not negate the worry and concern that it causes many people.... in my company approx 10% of staff have been laid off, others have been told that there are no other plans for more cuts, however circumstances can change and there may well be more cuts, we all know that and its a major source of worry and stress, not something that you or your public service colleages have to worry about......

[sparkey321]

Private sector will have job losses and payrises are going to stagnate for the next 2 - 3years.

How does this ^^^^^^

[quote:3kisyhf5]The reins wil have to be pulled in on public sector pay .

Mean this ^^^^^[/quote:3kisyhf5]

If you cannot see the link between the two then there is no hope.

Public sector pay (including the paye taxes they pay) are all generated by the private sector. I know they pay tax but Public servants are not net contributors to the exchequer.

If the private sector is in trouble and generating less cash then there is a smaller income to the exchequer to pay for the public sector. Spending on public sector pay over the last 10 years has been unsustainable and the associated pension costs will come back to haunt us in years to come. Any increase in pay is also reflected in this pension cost.

Without the private sector there is no one to pay for the public sector.

And Riker like it or not a huge proportion of small business are struggling at the moment. Really struggling and they are all at risk if having to lay people off. All private sector employees are at risk of loosing their jobs EVERY SINGLE DAY.... All it takes is for one bad debtor to break a small company or a bad quarter for a multinational to pull out.

[bobbysands81]

[

Universal_001, how many executives have we in this country and how many public servants have we. I think you will find that the latter is a significant multiple of the former and its us the taxpayers who have to pay for the increases.

Are you seriously trying to say that a public servant gets paid the same amount as an executive represented by IBEC???!!!

People who haven't a clue about the public/civil service really shouldn't bother saying anything as usually it's devoid of anything meaningful and is a re-hash of tripe written in the papers by a lazy journalist who picks on easy targets.

At least RebelCNC spoke a bit of sense in his comment earlier in the thread. Get rid of the timewasters in the Service. I also love the premise that it always on these threads that EVERYONE in the Private Sector pays ALL their taxes and works at 100% capacity 100% of the time.

If the Private Sector wasn't so greedy then we wouldn't have the rate of inflation that we do have. Ireland is a rip-off of a place to live in thanks to the disgustingly obese profit driven Private Sector we have.

If there was more productivity in the Private Sector then prices wouldn't be as high, get off your holes and work more instead of posting on an internet site and help keep Ireland competitive!