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  1. #641
    jman0war jman0war is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Murphy View Post
    But there is a difference between less than optimal and burning millions of euro worth of energy a day to manage what a handful of servers costing maybe 20k could manage far and away more efficiently.
    Centralized "trusted" systems are a security hole.
    Distributed, trust-less systems are not.
    Hence Bitcoin has never, and probably cannot be hacked.
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  2. #642
    YongHoi YongHoi is offline
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    I’m not very well up on Bitcoin, and don’t like to invest in things I don’t understand.
    One thing I don’t understand is the selling process of BTC. As far as I can tell you can
    a) Sell to a friend (or stranger) by direct transaction (limited, and potentially risky).
    b) Sell through an exchange (a large one recently went bust owing millions).
    c) Use a Peer to Peer network, which is complicated, takes ages, and is liable to fraud.
    Furthermore, getting money from a sale requires a transaction into a Fiat Currency, normally through a Bank account, which eradicates the anonymity of the transaction.

    As a means of exchange I like the concept - but it’s useability is surely being damaged by these extreme value fluctuations. How can you buy an apple with a Bitcoin when today it’s worth 1,000USD, but in hours it’s 500, or 1,500 because the speculators are playing with it?

    I’m open to explanations from the Bitcoin fans.
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  3. #643
    Nermal Nermal is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Murphy View Post
    But there is a difference between less than optimal and burning millions of euro worth of energy a day to manage what a handful of servers costing maybe 20k could manage far and away more efficiently.
    They couldn't manage it more efficiently. Like I said, they are not just processing transactions, they are securing the network.

    If you wanted to double-spend bitcoins or undo transactions you'd have to obtain for yourself an electricity supply greater than that of many countries.
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  4. #644
    jmcc jmcc is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by jman0war View Post
    Hence Bitcoin has never, and probably cannot be hacked.
    Your faith is worrying.
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  5. #645
    Trainwreck Trainwreck is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by YongHoi View Post
    Iím not very well up on Bitcoin, and donít like to invest in things I donít understand.
    There is only one thing you need to know about "investing" in Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency)

    It is a cryptocurrency. It is not something you can invest in. You "invest" in something that produces value somehow. Buying something that simply fluctuates in price is not "investment", but "speculation", which is a fancy way of saying gambling. Nothing more.

    So buy cryptocurrencies if that is your bag. But don't fool yourself into thinking you are "investing". It is merely gambling.
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  6. #646
    clearmurk clearmurk is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trainwreck View Post
    There is only one thing you need to know about "investing" in Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency)

    It is a cryptocurrency. It is not something you can invest in. You "invest" in something that produces value somehow. Buying something that simply fluctuates in price is not "investment", but "speculation", which is a fancy way of saying gambling. Nothing more.

    So buy cryptocurrencies if that is your bag. But don't fool yourself into thinking you are "investing". It is merely gambling.
    Not much different to any other "asset" class.
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  7. #647
    Watcher2 Watcher2 is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by YongHoi View Post
    I’m not very well up on Bitcoin, and don’t like to invest in things I don’t understand.
    One thing I don’t understand is the selling process of BTC. As far as I can tell you can
    a) Sell to a friend (or stranger) by direct transaction (limited, and potentially risky).
    b) Sell through an exchange (a large one recently went bust owing millions).
    c) Use a Peer to Peer network, which is complicated, takes ages, and is liable to fraud.
    Furthermore, getting money from a sale requires a transaction into a Fiat Currency, normally through a Bank account, which eradicates the anonymity of the transaction.

    As a means of exchange I like the concept - but it’s useability is surely being damaged by these extreme value fluctuations. How can you buy an apple with a Bitcoin when today it’s worth 1,000USD, but in hours it’s 500, or 1,500 because the speculators are playing with it?

    I’m open to explanations from the Bitcoin fans.
    It is just a speculative, faddy type of an investment, nothing more really. It's utility is very limited. What I found hilariously ironic in its early days were the fanboys talking about how revolutionary Bitcoin was and how it was the new currency, the new exchange value. It was going to take over from dirty government backed currencies everywhere. Then, the company behind Bitcoin opened a regular bank account.
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  8. #648
    Trainwreck Trainwreck is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by clearmurk View Post
    Not much different to any other "asset" class.
    Shares - produce profit and/or dividends
    Bonds - produce coupon
    Property - produces rental


    Bitcoin - produces, err, unicorns.



    Please do tell me you are a financial advisor...
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  9. #649
    Roberto Jordan Roberto Jordan is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by clearmurk View Post
    Not much different to any other "asset" class.
    Really? You buy land or a part of a company ( share) or a bushel of wheat and realistically run the same risk of total losses as on crypto currency???
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  10. #650
    sadcitizen sadcitizen is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by YongHoi View Post
    I’m not very well up on Bitcoin, and don’t like to invest in things I don’t understand.
    One thing I don’t understand is the selling process of BTC. As far as I can tell you can
    a) Sell to a friend (or stranger) by direct transaction (limited, and potentially risky).
    b) Sell through an exchange (a large one recently went bust owing millions).
    c) Use a Peer to Peer network, which is complicated, takes ages, and is liable to fraud.
    Furthermore, getting money from a sale requires a transaction into a Fiat Currency, normally through a Bank account, which eradicates the anonymity of the transaction.

    As a means of exchange I like the concept - but it’s useability is surely being damaged by these extreme value fluctuations. How can you buy an apple with a Bitcoin when today it’s worth 1,000USD, but in hours it’s 500, or 1,500 because the speculators are playing with it?

    I’m open to explanations from the Bitcoin fans.
    Your understanding is correct.

    An option d) is made possible by smart contract based blockchains like Ethereum, and that's decentralised exchanges. So the exchange is essentially made up of smart contracts which are made secure by the underlying blockchain. In theory it isn't open to the same security flaws that centralised exchanges are. Ultimately yeah, you have to get Fiat in or out. But centralised exchanges are necessarily becoming more legitimate organisations anyway, given that they're processing billions of dollars annually.

    Regarding price fluctuations, this ties into current debate around whether or not it should be considered a currency or an asset. As more people use it prices will stabilise. And for purchasing goods right now, presumably companies peg the price of goods to a crypto/Fiat ratio, so it shouldn't really matter to an end-user.
    Last edited by sadcitizen; 1st November 2017 at 10:29 AM.
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